No Direct3D sound for Vista!

[Help~Is~Here]

This thread is related to the previous one at:
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67711

The reason I had to open this again was because the mod shantanu certainly seems to not like things against windows and has closed the thread without providing an oppurtunity to prove how much the windows fanboys are wrong about the issue and me!

Well it turns out that Windows Fanboys never seem to open their eyes and look at things rather take every word literally.

@gx, shantanu and pillainp, you guys just proved as to how much you can understand the whole fact about what this really means rather than what technology they have migrated to! lol.. can't believe this, with their own stupid logic, they blame me for not understanding what this all means.. lol.. how sad.

tum karo toh chamtakar hum karen toh balatakar wah re HiH ....

That was a rumor, this is not a rumor! As simple as that if you have a problem understanding what that meant!

Ya we can see that when a Linboy doesn't even know about an Open Technology called OpenAL & tries to downplay Microsoft & Vista which bought this open technology for the masses out there first.

See, this is the whole point, firstly you assume that I'm a linboy when I support OSS and don't use linux at the moment rather using WinXP! How much more could an assumption be sadder!

And secondly your assumption that I don't know anything which again is sadly wrong because you fail to look at what this implies!

If you are not sure, let me make it clear, I know what OpenAL is and I know how much better it is and kids like you don't need to give me a lecture on that because the whole point is about MS's decision to drop the bomb at users who already have DirectSound Compatible hardware which will not work with this standard as it's simply not compatible and the point is that Souncd card developers don't yet have drivers which are compatible with this API!! In short, you are left without proper sound reproduction as the sofware emulation is only able to output stereo sound as their are no OpenAL drivers for the hardware that lets your output the sound in surround sound!

So in short, regardless of which technology is better, at the momemt you are left with no surround sound! Because there are no drivers yet for any hardware that can output sound in surround sound! Who cares what technology is being used? If the end user can't get 3D sound, what is the whole point about downgrading to Vista?

Now, before you pathetically assume anything about me not know what I'm talking about, look at what I said implies to the end user which is noting but NO SURROUND SOUND!

And @shantanu, I can't believe the way you have been acting about these threads that highlight a flaw about Windows!

The point about the thread was not to compare the technologies that have been used but to get the bottom line straight that for the END USER, there is no SURROUND SOUND!! as of now atleast till MS comes out with drivers that can really work to emulate the surround sound of the games and movies that the End user has already paid for. In short, the End users who had paid for getting games and movies and sound cards that help surround sound using Direct Sound are left stranded where there investment is gone for the dogs!

The end user bought content which used to support MS's very own DirectSound standard and now, without warning, they withdraw this so that existing hardware manufacturers atleast have the time to develop the drivers!

This is the case that we have seen with Vista all the way, where they have come out with something that doesn't have proper driver support because they withdrew support to almost lot of existing technology just like that already being used and not giving enough time for hardware manufacturers to develop their drivers so as to be compatible with the new sofware, but alas, MS wants every to use what they think is right rather than let people use what they already have!

@gx and pillai, go get a life before you falsely accuse someone of not knowing something because of your ignorance to understand the issue.

I'm sure I'm going to get banned for this because of the simple fact that MS Fanboys just don't like the truth hitting them face on!
And the best part is, they accuse everyone else of being stupid and not knowing anything when they themselves cannot see what this all implies because of the simple fact that they are FANBOYS!

@gx, stop acting like you know everything and that we all are fools and have know knowledge about MS! Your stupid assumptions just point to fact that you are just a kid who hasn't learnt 'respect' which I been asking you do do from the past 1 month. And seriously, if you think that MS has sorted out this problem, please tell me how and how many hardware manufactures have been able to get drivers working with the new API? Or for the love of GOD accept the fact that this is a problem and that it has not yet been fixed by MS! rather than calling someone else stupid!

 

[iMav]

if it were a rumor do u have any proof proving it false or true ... if not take the peice of news with a pinch of salt ... cant do that ... tehn expect being misrabled for a week and yeah i want to see the thread where i hav misled members ...

and HiH all that u tell to some1 else like ... go get life or u dont have abiloity to understand the same can be said about u ...

 

[Help~Is~Here]

if it were a rumor do u have any proof proving it false or true ... if not take the peice of news with a pinch of salt ... cant do that ... tehn expect being misrabled for a week and yeah i want to see the thread where i hav misled members ...

Well, everyone know's it's the truth and not just a rumor! I don't need to waste time trying to prove that to you when it's very evident.

and HiH all that u tell to some1 else like ... go get life or u dont have abiloity to understand the same can be said about u ...

I haven't called anyone a stupid admin who knows nothing about what they are speaking and post cr@p trying to build up a dirty image of someone at their absense if you understand what I'm talking about .
Seriously Imav, what kind of behaviour is it when they mock someone in their absense when they don't understand what the whole point of the topic was?

 

[gxsaurav]

This thread is related to the previous one at:
*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67711

1st Violation of rules. Thread reported.

2nd....H.O.L.Y S.H.I.T how ignorant you can be

I know what OpenAL is and I know how much better it is and kids like you don't need to give me a lecture on that

You certainly don't seem to know what OpenAL & DS3D is how Vista processes Sound. If you knew you would not have started this thread.

MS's decision to drop the bomb at users who already have DirectSound Compatible hardware which will not work with this standard

:ROFL......mods, ban me for laughing this loud...but I can't help it.

There are 2 kind of sound cards out there. First ones are from creative, they support EAX 2.0, EAX 3.0, EAX 4.0 etc. This is made using DirectSound3D API of DirectX.

2nd are those sound cards which are no allowed to use EAX 3.0 or later due to license restrictions from creative. These are the ones made by RealTek, Analog Device etc usually in the form of onboard Audio. These support EAX 2.0 & not 3.0. So the only way someone can use DS3D is to buy a creative sound card which majority of users do not have. So onboard audio users are not affected by Vista's removal of DS3D & implementation of OpenAL.

Now comes the best part. The way OpenAL is made, it can be used on old DSP based onboard audio cards too whether they are from creative or not. I have an audigy card with me but OpenAL will even work even with my onboard AD1985 sound card of Intel 865GBF motherboard. If this isn't compatibility then I don't know what is....

Now lets come to those users who are using Audigy & X-fi sound card. Well, like I mentioned in that other thread, simply download Creative Alchemy drivers from the link I gave & you will have full support for DS3D games back in Vista on Creative Sound card. This time the driver will convert all DS3D calls to OpenAL in hardware due to which performance difference will be almost nil.

it's simply not compatible and the point is that Souncd card developers don't yet have drivers which are compatible with this API!

Do you know what UAA is no seriously do u know what UAA is. Microsoft made the universal audio architecture drivers long before Vista was released so that any HD Audio compatible sound card whether in the market right now or releasing tomorrow is supported out of the box in Vista. After that the user can simply install the drivers provided in CD or Windows Update to further enhance the capability.

In short, you are left without proper sound reproduction as the sofware emulation is only able to output stereo sound

Nope, its a lie. Game developers such as ID & Unreal have released OpenAL patches for the games to enable support for OpenAL. If you have a creative sound card, just update the drivers & you will again get full support. You again get full multichannel audio with 3D sound positioning.

as their are no OpenAL drivers for the hardware that lets your output the sound in surround sound!

So in short, regardless of which technology is better, at the momemt you are left with no surround sound!

Because there are no drivers yet for any hardware that can output sound in surround sound!

NO SURROUND SOUND!

for the END USER, there is no SURROUND SOUND!!

Who cares what technology is being used? If the end user can't get 3D sound, what is the whole point about downgrading to Vista?

The end user bought content which used to support MS's very own DirectSound standard and now, without warning, they withdraw this so that existing hardware manufacturers atleast have the time to develop the drivers!

HA HAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH, there are fully supported. You said the same thing 7 times like a parrot. 2000000th time i m saying this. THERE IS FULL SURROUND SOUND SUPPORT IN VISTA NOW. Creative Alchemy & UAA drivers are already available. UAA drivers came even before Vista was released. This problem is long solved. The end user is fully getting 3D sound in Windows Vista. It would have made sense if u posted this article 2.5 years ago .

In short, the End users who had paid for getting games and movies and sound cards that help surround sound using Direct Sound are left stranded where there investment is gone for the dogs!

LOLZ.......OMFG...DS3D IN MOVIES & VIDEOS WHEN THE HELL THIS HAPPENED.

DS3D is made for games only not for movies, thats DirectAudio which is still right there in Vista

There is a limit I can control my laughter here. Do u really know what OpenAL & DS3D is ?

not giving enough time for hardware manufacturers to develop their drivers so as to be compatible with the new sofware, but alas, MS wants every to use what they think is right rather than let people use what they already have!

Andy, mehul, shantanu, vishal, manan, zeeshan, arya, Soura, Choto....anurag....bhai logo koi smabhalo mujhe....i m rolling on floor laughing.

MS & Intel made the HD Audio specification in 2004. Long before Vista was released. MS themselves made first UAA drivers with Intel in 2004 which was always there in Vista beta & then Vista RTM. Thats why when you install an HD Audio sound card in Vista, it is supported out of the box.

@gx, stop acting like you know everything and that we all are fools and have know knowledge about MS! Your stupid assumptions just point to fact that you are just a kid who hasn't learnt 'respect' which I been asking you do do from the past 1 month.

Does somebody seriously expects me to respect him for this.

please tell me how and how many hardware manufactures have been able to get drivers working with the new API?

Sure, note down. Creative, RealTek, Analog Device, VIA, Sigmatel, C-Media...m i missing any manufacturer . Each and every HD Audio sound card out there is OpenAL compatible

hat kind of behaviour is it when they mock someone in their absense when they don't understand what the whole point of the topic was?

The only way I & even mehul & kalpik will see your post is a way to spread FUD for something which was fixed almost 2 years back & no longer affects Vista

 

[Help~Is~Here]

Dude, you still dont' get it do you? The bottom line is that the issue has not been fully resolved as audio hardware are still struggling to get the low level bugs in the drivers sorted out because of the way OpenAL has exposed those bugs and games that you already bought that having DirectSound no longer give you surround audio! Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[gxsaurav]

Dude, you still dont' get it do you? The bottom line is that the issue has not been fully resolved

It was resolved 2 years ago.

audio hardware are still struggling to get the low level bugs in the drivers sorted out because of the way OpenAL has exposed those bugs

So, would u mind letting the sound card manufacturers fix the bugs. Tell me a single HD Audio sound card manufacturer who is not having UAA & Vista compatible drivers with full OpenAL support. Bugs in drivers will always be there whether DS3D or OpenAL or XP or Vista.

Those using AC97 based sound card never had support for 3D Positional Audio of EAX 3.0 anyway whether they use XP or Vista.

games that you already bought that having DirectSound no longer give you surround audio! Nothing more, nothing less.

Let me make it moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooore clear to u in class 2 english.

I got a sound card, Its Creative audigy, It supports DS3D but no DS3D in Vista, Games don't work in it with proper audio. I went to creative's website or I ran Windows Update.....Eureka a new driver. I installed the new driver which enabled EAX 3.0 to OpenAL convertion. YIpppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp, now even Unreal Tournament 2003 with EAX 3.0 works fine again. All my games are working again.

I got a sound card, it is onboard AD1985 in Intel 865GBF. It supports only EAX 2.0, sorry no support for surround sound in games because creative did not allowed other sound card manufacturers to use EAX 3.0 in there sound card. All AC97 compatible sound card come without EAX 3.0 support, means no DS3D Positional sound support.

If I run a game on these sound card surround sound is not there anyway because hardware is not capable of doing it. Games work in stereo sound.

I got Intel HD Audio which supports OpenAL & EAX 2.0, yipeee....surround sound again. I install Windows XP on it & drives given by my sound card to play my games like Quake 4, yipee.....maximum of EAX 2.0 but this time OpenAL calls make it surround sound of 5.1 channel speakers. Yipeee........my games work with full surround sound again.

I install Vista, on AC97 sound card....no surround sound because my sound card doesn't support EAX 3.0. But I can still use 5.1 Channel Audio in games like Quake 4 properly.

I install Vista on Intel HD Audio which support EAX 2.0, damn...no surround sound. But my HD Audio is 5.1 channel, & OpenAL & UAA drivers are converting EAX 3.0 calls to OpenAL & I get full 5.1 channel surround support in games.

But still, my game doesn't work. Well...I go to Windows Update & the manufacturer of the game, Yipeeeeeee an update to my game which enables support for OpenAL in my game.....it works with surround sound again.

Dude, you are confusing 3D Positional Audio with Surround Sound.3D Positional Audio = EAX 2.0, EAX 3.0, Sensura 3D, OpenAL.

Surround sound = Multiple speakers.

All old games which had support for EAX 3.0 or more required Creative sound cards. If you don't have a sound card from creative then you can't use EAX 3.0 but u still use Surround sound with any sound card out there.

if you have a creative sound card & Vista then simply update the drivers & all those games which need EAX 3.0 will again work in Vista fine giving full Surround Sound support.

Just do this forum a favor. Stop posting here.

 

[mediator]

[SIZE=+1]I request the modes[/SIZE] not to close this thread as it is telling me something new!! If they feel the language isn't ok then please move it to FIGHT CLUB as thats wat it is for and I feel that threads in FIGHt CLUB shud be closed and only closed, nuthing much more than that, when nuthing new is being talked bt and people are getting personal after every single post.

After all thats wat FIGHT CLUB is for!!

 

[gxsaurav]

[SIZE=+1]I request the modes[/SIZE] not to close this thread

I request the mods to close this thread as this thread is just a FUD attempt to scare people about a problem in Vista which doesn't exist.

If they feel the language isn't ok then please move it to FIGHT CLUB

There is no fight or any more discussion here. HiH is completely wrong with his FUD attempt here & it he is proved wrong. Now if he still trolls here, then mods can take necessary action to ban him

 

[iMav]

so in other words ... with openAL MS tried to creative's attempt of making sure that better sound is available only thru creative cards ... resulting in choice for customer of buying any card out there and being able to get sound quality not only good but also at times better than that coming from creative ???

 

[mediator]

mods can take necessary action to ban him

I hate when someone, who is not spamming/abusing aggressively, gets banned. So no banning please!

@GX: And if u feel he isn't talking sense, then correct him. Did anyone ask all this time to ban u, when u were creating FUDs bt Linux/OSS, talking childishly about WIn Vs Linux after creating an UBuntu help thread in OPEN SOURCE, talking Mac/Apple after creating a suggestion thread on MS/VISTA etc etc.....List unending? So leave it as it is!

 

[iMav]

well seriously mediator its difficult to talk to some1 who isnt making sense but still sticks to his guns under thinking that he makes complete sense and the other person is talking sh!t just because he has a reputation of being partial to a brand

this is 1 of the biggest problem that most "fanboys" face ... even when they try to make sense by pointing things it is said that ur an idiot and have no knowledge and are saying wat ever u are saying because ur a fanboy

 

[infra_red_dude]

this is an interesting read. i didn't know about the fact that vista has no ds3d support. tho i'd read about the openal support

.... then mods can take necessary action to ban him

....So no banning please!

are you two, by any chance, mods here? or are you two hafing a remote control for the mods' action? requesting the mods to close threads is fine. but plz DON'T think that mods here are STUPID enuff to need ur recommendations about whom to ban and whom not to! haf some respect towards the mods and their ability. they know what to do, what not to and when to do what!

 

[shantanu]

hey i didnt post this kind of thing as told by HIH...

 

[iMav]

that was said by me

 

[gxsaurav]

wARNING : Long post coming up

so in other words ... with openAL MS tried to creative's attempt of making sure that better sound is available only thru creative cards ... resulting in choice for customer of buying any card out there and being able to get sound quality not only good but also at times better than that coming from creative ???

Yup, Actually MS is not in it at all.

Intel released AC97 in 1997. At that time sound was upto 16bit & Stereo only in computers so AC97 made sence. Creative came up with Live Family of sound cards. These had support of EAX 2.0 throughout there lifetime.

Creative designed the EMU10K1 Audio Processing Engine which was used in Audigy line of Sound Cards with 24bit audio support with upto 196KHz of Audio. Creative bought Hardware processing of Audio to the market for the first time. Aureal3D was also there but Creative killed Aureal in lawsuits there Vortex line of sound card died.

Now creative was ruling the sound card market. They patented 24bit Audio Processing method & made sure no one else can use there propriety EAX 3.0 which used 24bit Audio, released in for of Audigy 1. Game developers found it easy to implement EAX 3.0 so everyone supported it. EAX 3.0 was made using DirectSound 3D of DIrectX by Microsoft.

Intel created HD Audio with full 32bit Audio support & a S.H.I.T load of features over the 24bit method of Creative. Intel provided all the features & more of Creative EMU10k1 with there Intel HD Audio specification while working in software. What does this means? The CPU is calculating for the Audio & then sending this to a DSP or Codec in the motherboard or Add-in board to send to speakers. Every feature of DS3D was given using Intel HD Audio while working in Software mode.

Microsoft saw this, they came forward & supported Intel HD Audio specification with there Universal Audio architecture. Now the OS controls the hardware completely using a driver. They saw that it makes no sense to go with hardware based DS3D now cos everything can be achieved using software driver on any HD Audio sound card from any manufacturer on any OS because HD Audio specification is free & open to all. So MS removed support of DS3D from Vista & bought XAudio 1.0 which is software based 3D Positional Audio system used in XBOX 360 & Vista.The UAA is only for Vista from Microsoft.

Apple supported Intel HD Audio with there Core Audio technology in Mac OS X 10.4 bringing true surround sound to Mac platform. Apple made there own technology & driver for HD Audio.

Open Source got Intel HD Audio specification & the ability to do anything in software so they also started supporting in Linux. Linux as far as I know made there own drivers in the kernel.

Creative saw this & that now no developer will use EAX cos it doesn't makes sense to use EAX when a developer usually make games for Windows which means he will support XAudio now. Using this also means that he can port his games to any other platform cos there is a compatible XAudio conversion layer for Linux or Mac in the form of OpenAL which is also for Windows.

Creative quickly acquired Loki Software, the developer of OpenAL & now Creative makes OpenAL. OpenAL is supported on any platform out there whether it is Linux or Mac or Windows.

This resulted in compatibility problems with games using EAX 3.0 & above. Creative made Alchemy drivers for Windows Vista due to which all old games using EAX 3.0 now work in Vista again just like before in an OpenAL layer.

All other sound card manufacturer like Analog device & Realtek never supported EAX 3.0 anyway cos they were not allowed to. So removal of DS3D from Vista did not affect these onboard sound DSPs used usually in motherboards.

If a game uses EAX 3.0, the gamer must use a Creative Sound card. If he has a Creative Sound card & Windows Vista just download the driver from Creative.com

If a game uses EAX 3.0 but a gamer has onboard Intel HD Audio, then OpenAL update for the game &/or UAA drivers provide 3D Surround sound for the game just like before.

If a game uses EAX 3.0 & the gamer has AC97 based sound card then he cannot run the game with EAX 3.0 because whether Windows XP or Vista because it is not supported in hardware.

Almost all the games released after 2003 dropped support for EAX 2.0 in favor of software solution which was common to many sound cards such as Sensura 3D or EAX 3.0.

Games before 2003 such as Quake 3, NFA hot Pursuit had support for either EAX 3.0 or EAX 2.0 The condition of EAX 3.0 is already mentioned above. In case of EAX 2.0 game running in Intel HD Audio, well the calls are converted to OpenAL/XAudio by the UAA in Vista & it gives 3d positional audio again.

Movies do not use DirectSound3D. They use real positional audio in the wave stream which can be played in any multichannel sound card whether creative or Analog device. Windows uses the sound card for calculating the audio & wave stream in hardware via DirectX. All media players support this such as PowerDVD or WinDVD. Now whether DS3D is there or not in Vista, it doesn't affect anyone trying to play a DVD on 5.1 channel Speakers as long as the sound card is multi channel.

All this XAudio specification was finalized in 2004 when Intel HD Audio came out in the form of Intel 915 chipset. Later on nVidia & AMD supported this specification too because it was open & cross platform.

MS & Intel gave sound card manufacturers the HD Audio specs & UAA API after which Realtek etc also made there own HD Audio compliant sound cards which are supported out of the box in Vista. However these manufacturers added there own enhancements to there sound card due to which an additional manufacturer supplied drivers was recommended in Windows Vista.

Microsoft themselves took it upon them & made drivers for 1000s of sound cards such as my arcane Intel 865GBF's onboard Analog Device Sound card & bundled it in Windows Vista. My onboard audio is fully supported by Windows Vista out of the box with full 5.1 channel support. Even a laptop solution like C-Media CMI sound chip is supported out of the box.

I hope everyone now knows why Microsoft removed DS3D, why no gamer is at loss, & why all the games work fine. If a game does not work plz update your sound card drivers or the game. Don't blame MS cos Vista works with many other games just fine.

I don't find whats the problem of HiH & why is he blaming MS?

 

[shantanu]

@HIH : (this is Duplicate Thread when i locked the previous , this should not have been created/// )

dude seriously get some life... you are behaving in a weird manner ! nor i am supporting windows.. and nor i behave like a fan boy, infact i see you making lunatic posts.. ! i dont think you should be taking tins too personally... and one more thing.. you think that i wont ban you if you will indulge me with your posts.. and then think if i am involved i wont ban.. dont think so..

you say you are matured.. and you work for some big company.. then also you have time posting and flaming.. ?
you behave like a 13 year old..
i gave you over 5 to 6 excuses on flames and other thing.. coz first you flame.. abuse , insult and then PM me and flame me there.. then you insult and tell me i am baised..
i understand why you told me that i will miserable you coz i support windows.. coz you know that from some time i am moderating and no one else will take action.. so it was your strategy to PM me with this.. so that i become bounded and wont ban you..
you are PMing me.... making insulting posts about me.. and when no one takes action.. i have to coz its my responsiblity..

*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67711 ( i already warned you guys )

reason for banning you everyone knows..



User miserabled for 2 weeks..



Thread is a BS... so thread locked

 

[Raaabo]

Shantanu, no miserabling anyone, especially if they have a problem with you. If they flame you, report it to me. If other users fight you can act as a mediator and take appropriate action. Mods generally never ban people who argue with them, wait for another mod to do so or report the user. Thread moved to fight club, HIH un-miserabled, because I don't know about PMs but this thread seemed fine.

Raaabo

 

[infra_red_dude]

finally the great admin steps in! thanks for clearing things raabo.. hope we continue a healthy discussion now

 

[iMav]

@gx ... thanx for clearing it out ... great infpo yaar ...

 

[infra_red_dude]

somethings i'd like to add/correct.

the emu10k1 procs are used in the Live! series NOT the audigy series. the audigy series used the emu10k2 procs and up and the audigy 2 onwards (released sometime in early 2003 i guess) has full native support for openal api.

open al was a collaboration between Loki group and creative labs and eventually loki was dissolved. i suggest people to read this from the openal site and clear things. some things are really clear that OpenAL was always a better alternative than DS3D. i haf no problems wid it. if MS supports a better technology than theirs (even it theirs is inferior).

OpenAL and Vista from the OpenAL site