HP Probook 4445S review - Office Gamer

[coderunknown]

HP’s Probook line of laptops are aimed at business users and 4445S is no different. With a pricetag of 30-33k depending on the configuration (2 or 4GB ram, rest everything same) it is strictly aimed at the budget minded customer. Also this is the only laptop aimed at business users to ship with an APU here in India. I got mine from a local dealer for 32k including a HP backpack.

*i.imgur.com/SpBWcm7.jpg

Configuration:

Processor	AMD A6 4400M (2 X 2.7Ghz, turbo up to 3.2Ghz, 32nm, 1MB L2 cache, 35W TDP)
Chipset	AMD A70M FCH (Hudson M3)
Memory	1 X 2GB Micron DDR3-1600Mhz (11-11-12-28, 1.5V)
Graphics	AMD Radeon HD 7520G (192 Radeon Cores, 497Mhz-686Mhz)
Display	14” WLED Glossy (1366X768, LG Philips LGD0385)
Hard Drive	Hitachi 500GB (HTS727500A9E364, 7200rpm, 16MB, SATA 3GB/s)
Optical Drive	DVD-RW (DS8A8SH)
Networking	Ethernet (Realtek RTL8168), Wi-Fi (Broadcom BCM4313), Bluetooth 4.0 (Broadcom BCM20702)
Audio	AMD Hudson Audio, SRS Sound
Battery	6-cell 47WHr Li-ion (65W adapter), 240min according to HP
Front Side	SD card slot, microphone, headphone jack
Left Side	2 X USB 3.0, AC power connector, VGA, HDMI, RJ45, exhaust vent, Kensington port
Right Side	2 X USB 2.0, optical drive
Back side	N/A
Operating system	DOS (upgraded to Windows 7 at shop)
Dimension	3.5 X 33.5 X 23.5cm (height, width, depth)
Weight	2.04kg (laptop + battery), 0.4kg (adapter)
Extra	HD webcam, fingerprint reader
Warranty	3yr carry-in warranty
Price	32,000 (inc a free HP branded backpack)

Body:

*i.imgur.com/fxWRARa.jpg

The new gen of Probook ships in an agonized aluminum chassis making it look classy as well as increases the tolerance level for day to day wear without adding much weight. Actually they weight lesser than their G-series and DV-series counterpart which are completely plastic built. The HP logo inscribed in the metal only adds to the look but unlike DV-series doesn’t light up (which is a good thing). Even the arm rest is built from the same metal but the screen bezel has to do with plastic.
The bottom part is all plastic with a removable 47WHr battery at the back. One can get access to the ram and hard drive by removing the back panel which doesn’t require any tool. The processor and fan are further shielded behind a metal plate. Being a new laptop didn't want to go any further so this is the maximum depth I’ll go for now.
The body is prone to dust and fingerprint but at least they don’t show up as easily as the glossy plastic G/DV series ones.

Keyboard & touchpad:

*i.imgur.com/60p92bW.jpg

HP used the usual island type keyboard but as this is a portable 14” laptop, the number pad is not present. Keeping things simple and clean there are only 3 buttons above the keyboard: Power button to the extreme left, browser and network (Wi-Fi & Bluetooth) quick access buttons to the right side. In between is the speaker. Feedback for the keyboard is good and even across the keys. Unlike the G6 series, the left and right arrow keys are quite big but the up and down keys are cramped into the space of a single key. Though HP added a small gap between the up and down key, it didn't help as it was unusable anyway. And as for the demanding crowd, the keyboard is plain and not backlit.
The touchpad is placed slightly to the left directly below the space button. It has an integrated touchpad disable button which can be activated by double tapping on the white dot which glows. The 2 buttons of the touchpad didn’t disappoint either though I found the touchpad is slightly smaller which is to be expected in a 14” laptop.
There is a fingerprint reader on the right side which won’t be used anytime soon but never the less a nice addition. Other than the AMD logo, the rest of the laptop is completely sticker free.

Display:

*i.imgur.com/GjNudc9.jpg

HP created a record with this laptop. I am not quite sure but maybe this is the first Probook to ship with a glossy display. Thankfully instead of having a matte display that has extremely limited brightness (true for most budget laptops with matte display) the brightness level is really high. More than the HP G6 2005AX laptop i previously tested. But even with glossy display one can find clear sign of cost cutting as the colour shifted on little bit of titling. If I lean back while working on the laptop, I was forced to readjust the screen because of the reflection as well as the change in colour. Also the bottom corners seem to be a little brighter than the rest of the display.

Port placement:

*i.imgur.com/0JQ5rpo.jpg
left side

*i.imgur.com/gfKc4LF.jpg
right side

*i.imgur.com/9BURI6y.jpg
front

The laptop has 4 USB slots with 2 being USB 3.0 powered by the A70M FCH (Fusion Control Hub) available on the left side and 2 USB 2.0 slots available on the left side. The USB ports are packed really close to each other so while 2 pen drives can go in, if you are using a dongle (like I do), the next slot immediately becomes unusable. Also there is no colour code to differentiate between USB 2.0 and 3.0 ports but a quick check with my trusted WD Passport HDD did the job. There is a HDMI port on the left side after the USB slots followed by a RJ45 jack and VGA slot and finally the AC point. The side of the laptop carves inwards halfway and as the AC port lies at the end, it ends up under a bit under the laptop. So if you blindly try to plug the AC plug, chances are you’ll miss it more than once. But this does help in case of the optical drive which is sparingly used and not prone to accidental opening if you try to carry the laptop holding by its side.
At the front are the audio in/out jack as well as a HDD activity led. A SD card slot follows next. Backside is plain without any port or exhaust.

Gallery:

Spoiler

*i.imgur.com/QRFCFMC.jpg
can be used outside but with max brightness

*i.imgur.com/t9LUJym.jpg
backside

*i.imgur.com/Lo4VSD0.jpg
cover removed

*i.imgur.com/QiJ2cn6.jpg
AMD logo not aligned

*i.imgur.com/Wujv25N.jpg
battery with some precautions listed

*i.imgur.com/7C1jftO.jpg
the back cover has dust filters

*i.imgur.com/fRhO4Ab.jpg
can't insert a dongle and pen drive at the same time

*i.imgur.com/05wOG7U.jpg
processor behind a shield

*i.imgur.com/2tLuIvB.jpg
a single ram stick and a free slot

*i.imgur.com/zUycpul.jpg
the touchpad is currently disabled

*i.imgur.com/YOlUHBd.jpg
a HD webcam

*i.imgur.com/zMieoMY.jpg
2 wifi antennas

*i.imgur.com/36Boxmj.jpg
the browser and connectivity button

*i.imgur.com/uuRiFUl.jpg*i.imgur.com/bga5XSk.jpg
charge indicator light. orange: laptop off and charging. white: laptop on and charging. off: laptop battery charge full.

 

[coderunknown]

System Performance:

To test system performance I fired up Cinebench and tested performance using both CPU as well as OpenCL. When it comes to CPU, it was no surprise that A6 dualcore basically got itself thrashed. Switching to OpenCL made it bring up a bit more respectable score against the Intel Xeon and i7 proccys (all 1st gen) while still being only 50% slow.

*i.imgur.com/B9zEQ7v.jpg
*i.imgur.com/aBmssAZ.jpg

To offer a bit more realistic system performance analysis I used WinRar and compressed 3DMark 1.0.0 (2013) installer weighting in at 969MB under best compression. It took 3:36min to complete. Anyone with 3DMark can do the same and compare the compression time with the above score.

*i.imgur.com/RmhOeMs.jpg

Not to miss out on the most widely used system benchmark unit, PCMark 7 (ver 1.4.0. PS: benchmark scores changed with the update. Don’t compare score from old version with new one), tested my laptop which ended with a score of 1506.

*i.imgur.com/VSWEwYA.jpg

Also ran a quick AIDA benchmark to test the cache and memory performance.

*i.imgur.com/XuoNHgK.jpg

Storage Performance:

Not many laptops ship with a 7200rpm HDD and only a rare few end up with this kind of access speed. To give you a better idea of how fast this little HDD is performed the same test on my desktop’s Western Digital 1TB Black and the results speak for themselves.

*i.imgur.com/EEqp1rt.jpg*i.imgur.com/Y6iD16X.jpg
Laptop HDD. Desktop HDD

*i.imgur.com/TUAqEYx.jpg*i.imgur.com/evzJ1gr.jpg
Laptop HDD. Desktop HDD

AMD Hudson chipset offers native USB 3.0 port and the copying speed actually exceeds of what I get from my desktop’s USB 3.0 port (powered by Etron controller).

*i.imgur.com/sGn0dwx.jpg


Graphics Performance:

192cores based on the VLIW4 architecture was never designed for any heavy graphics stuff.

*i.imgur.com/VcLl5nG.jpg
*i.imgur.com/zrZnoV1.jpg

Gave the new 3DMark a try but as FireStrike was a bit too extreme for the poor hardware (heck, FireStrike is too extreme for even my desktop), decided to stick with Ice Storm designed for entry level hardware. 25.5k score is nothing to brag about but for the kind of hardware in talk, I think 25k is a nice score.

*i.imgur.com/rrysNSn.jpg

But all these are more theoretical benchmark giving you a rough estimation only. Let’s switch to some real stuff.

Gaming Performance:

Looking at the lackluster performance in the Unigine benchmark I was reluctant to test any modern games but just can’t resist myself to try a couple of 2012 shooters including Hitman Absolution. Well that changed everything and I decided to throw my entire gaming collection (excluding any titles older than 2009) at this little baby. And unlike the GPU benchmark, it didn’t disappoint at all. Though performance should have been higher with dual-channel ram but the shop only had 1333Mhz ram and as a rule of thumb, the system is as fast as the slowest component so postponed the ram upgrade for some time around next year.
But as I learned soon enough, FRAPS data is not always an accurate measure of what the real life experience is. FRAPS shows I won’t be able to play Hitman even at lowest of settings when I already completed the first chapter on normal details. Moreover turning FRAPS benchmark on makes the FPS dip at random times. So cooked my own cool (and stupid) benchmark: Playability. If I can play through a section of the game without experiencing any lag or slowdown, the game is playable. It mayn’t be smooth always (H:A was not smooth i.e. 20-23FPS on avg but was still playable) but must not lag. If it lags, it gets itself disqualified.

PS: all games tested on default laptop resolution (1366X768). At low, antialiasing was turned off. 2X for mid and 4X for high while rest of the settings goes according to category.

Game	Year	Low	Mid	High
Batman: Arkham City	2011	YES	NO	NO
Bioshock Infinite	2013	YES	YES	NO
Blur	2010	YES	YES	YES
Borderlands 2	2012	YES	YES	YES
Burnout Paradise: The Ultimate Box	2009	YES	YES	YES
Call of Duty: Black Ops 2	2012	YES	YES	NO
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3	2011	YES	YES	NO
Crysis 3	2013	NO	NO	NO
Dirt Showdown	2012	YES	YES	NO
Dishonored	2012	YES	YES	YES
Far Cry 3	2012	YES	NO	NO
Ghost Recon: Future Soldier	2012	NO	NO	NO
Hitman Absolution	2012	YES	YES	NO
Max Payne 3	2012	YES	YES	NO
Metro 2033	2010	YES	YES	NO
Need for Speed: Most Wanted	2012	NO	NO	NO
RAGE	2011	YES	NO	NO
Sky Drift	2011	YES	YES	YES
Sleeping Dogs	2012	YES	YES	NO
Spec Ops: The Line	2012	YES	YES	YES
Torchlight	2009	YES	YES	YES

Well it definitely doesn’t look as bad as the Graphics Benchmark shows. Being able to play Max Payne 3 & Hitman Absolution at mid and Dishonored, Spec Ops the Line & Borderlands 2 at high was an excellent experience. Though Crysis 3, NFS Most Wanted & Future Soldier offered such low frame rates that they can’t be played at any given settings, unless the resolution is lowered which I was not willing to do.

I’ll update the chart when I get my hands on Tomb Raider though I am pretty sure Tomb Raider will join the leagues of Crysis 3.

Game screenshots:

Spoiler

*i.imgur.com/pxsTjx6.jpg
*i.imgur.com/WYpwWvG.jpg
*i.imgur.com/27w0MVL.jpg
*i.imgur.com/ys1ybPW.jpg
*i.imgur.com/FSnAdpN.jpg
*i.imgur.com/Zo1mDMX.jpg
*i.imgur.com/sZaipCp.jpg
*i.imgur.com/uYjig1z.jpg
*i.imgur.com/xBMF47O.jpg
*i.imgur.com/pbl0t0G.jpg
*i.imgur.com/M5NH4jZ.jpg
*i.imgur.com/ik3NujH.jpg
*i.imgur.com/o8tCeWx.jpg
*i.imgur.com/Law80iv.jpg
*i.imgur.com/r1k1Dkp.jpg
*i.imgur.com/AmPiHDH.jpg
*i.imgur.com/hBqSmCU.jpg

 

[coderunknown]

Sound:

I am no sound expert so I’ll keep this short and simple. Volume is low and quality is not upto the mark. It felt more like listening to some el-cheapo iBall speaker. The SRS or whatever tech the laptop comes equipped with is surely some marketing gimmick and didn’t work as intended. If HP wants me to install more of their junk software to get the SRS to work, no thank you very much. I am happy with my Soundmagic ES18 IEMs which I use for gaming as well as listening to music.

*i.imgur.com/l8HG1Kh.jpg
is this another marketing gimmick?

Connectivity:

I don’t have any router/wireless modem and the WiFi of my mobile doesn't work (because of custom rom fever) else could have turned the mobile into a wifi hotspot to test WiFi connectivity. I’ll be testing both WiFi as well as Bluetooth connectivity at a later date.

Noise:

Under idle/powersaver mode the laptop fan is completely silent but occasionally spins up for a couple of seconds before going back to silent mode.
Under load (depicted by playing games) the fan spins continuously but not loud enough for me to get distracted.

Heat:

Under idle the laptop run cool with processor never crossing the 30degree mark and the hard drive having a maximum temp of 35 (hard drive is packed in a narrow space, bound to get hot).
Under load (I played Dirt Showdown for 30min) temperature shot to a maximum of 66 degree for processor and 58degree for GPU. As the processor and gpu are on the same die, not sure how they can get different temperature. Under prolonged testing which includes running 3D Mark and a whole lot of benchmark software followed by at least 2hrs of intense gaming, processor temp increased to 67 while GPU temp remained same. HDD recorded 42degree C.

*i.imgur.com/dhmBvIc.jpg
67 for processor, 58 for GPU, 42 for HDD

*i.imgur.com/iuiMjXA.jpg
Core Temp confirms the same

AMD Turbo Core 3.0:

I read somewhere a while ago that unlike Intel's Turbo Boost where both the processor as well as the GPU can reach maximum clock speed, AMD's Turbo Boost can't. Well actually with the 3rd gen, AMD's Turbo Core is as effective as Intel's Turbo Boost. And here is the proof.

*i.imgur.com/1x34db2.jpg

Battery backup:

Instead of running Battery Eater software whole day to test idle, load battery backup, I used my own way around to find the average battery backup under a few scenario:
Idle: Used the laptop for reading ebooks. According to Battery Care as well as Windows I’ll be getting 8hrs battery backup. Though I’ll touch 20% charge limit in less than 6hrs. Brightness was at lowest level.
Browsing: Connected to net using a 3G dongle or tethered from my mobiles using USB cable and battery backup drops to 5hr (4hr till 20% charge limit).
Gaming: Yet to game on the battery. Will update once done but should last for around 2hr.

Warranty:

Another reason I gave G-series or the other Probooks (4440S) a miss was because of the 3yr warranty. Most laptops carry only a single year warranty and even though they offer extended warranty pack, they cost you anywhere from 3-5k depending on the package making the whole deal uneconomical for me. Also I have seen members applying for extended warranty on G-series months ago and yet to receive any kind of acknowledgement.
But on the downside, the warranty is doesn’t cover breaking of stuff i.e. no accidental damage protection. And even though I am not sure, the battery or charger only carries about 6-month of warranty.

HP Bloatware:

Thankfully my laptop shipped with DOS and the service person at the shop installed Windows 7 Ultimate. Anyone can guess this is not a genuine copy but that doesn’t matter. I instructed beforehand not to install any of the usual garbage (Nero, Photoshop, Office, etc all pirated) as I’ll be using my own freeware solution that work lot better and weight much less. Despite the fact that I did not want to install any HP bloatware I had to end up with a few but only 2. The HP connection manager to managing Bluetooth and WiFi connections and HP Hotkey Support to use the shortcut keys in keyboard. Also had to install Synaptic touchpad driver without which the touchpad disable button didn’t work.

*i.imgur.com/EUbh0oO.jpg
surprise !!! it actually works

Just like most budget HP laptops, no driver disc was provided and the guy at the shop spent at least 2hrs browsing through his collection of disc and ended up installing Intel drivers (facepalm please) and even AMD catalyst drivers that showed error when you try to open it. And also Acronis drivers so I ended up kicking out and have to downloaded a fresh set fffffffffffof drivers.

Conclusion:

HP created a master piece but with a few flaws that one have to ignore at this price point. Here is a quick brief of what I liked and what I didn’t:

+ve:
Build quality
Weight
Battery backup
Gaming performance
Temperature
Noise
Warranty

-ve:
System performance
Display
Sound

My first complain is the display. I am fine with glossy till the viewing angles or the colour looks accurate. Secondly the right side USB ports could have been spread a bit so that pen drives with broad body can be plugged in while the other slot is occupied. The sound quality is bad and low. Odd placement of the AC too didn't help as each time i plug in the AC cable, i have to check where is the plug point.

So if you are looking for a laptop with excellent build quality, light weight, good battery backup, sufficient performance for day to day use and lastly can play old as well as new games, you can safely go ahead with 4445S. It won't disappoint just remember to have dual channel ram in case you plan to play modern games.

 

[thetechfreak]

Now that's a huge review.
Nice work.

 

[theserpent]

Wow AMAZING

 

[nikufellow]

It can play max payne 3 @mid settings - am impressed!

 

[eduku]

Now, that's what I call a proper review!
Great job, Sam...

But, I would like to add that the new dv6's and m6's also have aluminium construction.

 

[omega44-xt]

Great review , even though my laptop is better but my review is just crap in front of that........

 

[dashing.sujay]

Good work indeed sam !

> First of all I want to ask you where is your digi cam ?

> How much time it takes to charge ?

> You bravely opened almost evrything such early. Did the back panel really didn't require any tools ? Screws ? If no, then I'm surprised as this is something new.

> Why do you feel the centre logo lighting isn't a good feature ? I believe it gives laptop a premium feel.

> The close packing of USB ports is a typical laptop problem. I have seen this almost ALL the laptops, no exception.

> Regarding the color of 3.0 ports, it's typical HP habit, not to change the color.

> Dedicated hardware key for wireless communication is something new in HP.

> Your HDD is really fast, I must admit. Lucky chap

> Is the 5th screenshot of game of MW3 ?

> NFS:MW you mentioned was launched last year I guess ? But wasn't the name something different as original MW was launched way back.

> Low volume in HP is something not expected. Most of the HP laptops pack decent audio. One of my senior's ProBook kicks ass of sub .5k speakers !!

>

Under idle the laptop run cool with processor never crossing the 30degree mark

This isn't possible as far as I believe, until and unless you really leave the laptop "idle", that too in A/c'd environment.

> 2.7GHz to 3.2GHz is turbo clock, isn't it ?

PS: I hope and wish your worthy wait will result you in a happy laptop user

GL

 

[amjath]

Awesome monster review congrats for ur purchase BTW

What I wanted to know is how much time it took for u to write this review

 

[sankar]

awesome review.very informative
i think you missed out on the windows experience index.

 

[coderunknown]

Awesome monster review congrats for ur purchase BTW

What I wanted to know is how much time it took for u to write this review

around a week. half of the time was spent testing games (first with built in benchmark, then FRAPS and lastly just playing though it)

> First of all I want to ask you where is your digi cam ?

err why are you asking? i know the images look dull

> How much time it takes to charge ?

around 1.5hr if laptop is off (from 30-35%)

> You bravely opened almost evrything such early. Did the back panel really didn't require any tools ? Screws ? If no, then I'm surprised as this is something new.

completely tool less. the push clips that are used to remove the battery have to be pushed all the way and the back cover gives up.

> Why do you feel the centre logo lighting isn't a good feature ? I believe it gives laptop a premium feel.

my desktop cabby has too many lights. fed up with all these bling bling. doesn't help.

> Regarding the color of 3.0 ports, it's typical HP habit, not to change the color.

actually never seen (or maybe i can't remember) any laptop with colour coded USB.

> Dedicated hardware key for wireless communication is something new in HP.

is it? usually most laptop has a bunch of special keys for doing all kind of stuff.

> Your HDD is really fast, I must admit. Lucky chap

HDD was tested yesterday.

> Is the 5th screenshot of game of MW3 ?

yup.

> NFS:MW you mentioned was launched last year I guess ? But wasn't the name something different as original MW was launched way back.

same name. usually people call it MW (2012).

> Low volume in HP is something not expected. Most of the HP laptops pack decent audio. One of my senior's ProBook kicks ass of sub .5k speakers !!

will have to check if something got unticked during testing but so far, absolutely disappointed with the volume level.

> This isn't possible as far as I believe, until and unless you really leave the laptop "idle", that too in A/c'd environment.

was reading some pdf files (TOC )

> 2.7GHz to 3.2GHz is turbo clock, isn't it ?

yes. 3.2 on both cores.

i think you missed out on the windows experience index.

i didn't. WEI is misleading. giving strange figures irrespective of hardware.

 

[sankar]

@sam thanks for the info. i did not know that.

 

[amjath]

around a week. half of the time was spent testing games (first with built in benchmark, then FRAPS and lastly just playing though it)

Woow great bro, u r right windows experience index is BS

 

[dashing.sujay]

err why are you asking? i know the images look dull

Yeah, because I expected as good pics as you have done the review.

But never mind, your phone cam is to be blamed. Seems, it lacks autofocus. btw where is your Canon ? It was needed to fire canons in this review.

around 1.5hr if laptop is off (from 30-35%)

If you come across any figure which tells you about time to charge from ~10% to 100% while ON, then do tell.

completely tool less. the push clips that are used to remove the battery have to be pushed all the way and the back cover gives up.

That's actually great. Never seen like that.

my desktop cabby has too many lights. fed up with all these bling bling. doesn't help.

Yeah, too much of bling bling kills the beauty. One glow of brand like Apple is what I prefer.

actually never seen (or maybe i can't remember) any laptop with colour coded USB.

My laptop:

Spoiler

*i.imgur.com/1NoAf.jpg

Actually, blue is supposed to be the de facto color of 3.0, but HP doesn't implements it, don't know why.

is it? usually most laptop has a bunch of special keys for doing all kind of stuff.

Not in HP.

will have to check if something got unticked during testing but so far, absolutely disappointed with the volume level.

Really sad to know.

was reading some pdf files (TOC )

Link please


Lastly if possible do test leshcat drivers with a fresh install when you get time and I'd like to see the improvements if any. I'm also thinking to try them but even thinking of fresh install is giving me nightmares.

 

[coderunknown]

Yeah, because I expected as good pics as you have done the review.

But never mind, your phone cam is to be blamed. Seems, it lacks autofocus. btw where is your Canon ? It was needed to fire canons in this review.

i used Canon. auto mode sucks.

If you come across any figure which tells you about time to charge from ~10% to 100% while ON, then do tell.

i'll test it myself. usually when the battery falls to 30%, i put it up for charge.

That's actually great. Never seen like that.

took me 30min to find the solution from HP forum. because there is no screw or any kind of lock.

Yeah, too much of bling bling kills the beauty. One glow of brand like Apple is what I prefer.

me too.

My laptop:

Spoiler

*i.imgur.com/1NoAf.jpg

Actually, blue is supposed to be the de facto color of 3.0, but HP doesn't implements it, don't know why.

first time seen something like this. maybe only Sony (and some US brands) offers colour coded USB.

Link please

can't post you know

Lastly if possible do test leshcat drivers with a fresh install when you get time and I'd like to see the improvements if any. I'm also thinking to try them but even thinking of fresh install is giving me nightmares.

leshcat integrates Intel drivers into the Catalyust package. doubt it'll bring anything new to an AMD lappy or even support it.

 

[dashing.sujay]

can't post you know

PM mem.

 

[Vyom]

Nice review. Not so nice Laptop.
I guess SAM bought this laptop as a secondary PC. But I will not buy a lappy with an A6 APU.

Still, congrats.

 

[coderunknown]

Nice review. Not so nice Laptop.
I guess SAM bought this laptop as a secondary PC. But I will not buy a lappy with an A6 APU.

Still, congrats.

10hr power cut per day during summer. will die without a backup pc. and my primary pc is becoming exceedingly unreliable.

 

[pratyush997]

Pretty awesome review. Was mentioning the fact that the OS is is not genuine necessary?