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History: The Indian Dark Ages (1750-1950 AD)

Do you think that India gained anything from Being a colony of Britain ?

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Caballero de Real Madrid

For an mis informed outsider it will always present in a different way.It was more of a campaign for holy lands by christians. The rest was just un precedented.

And just for fun..how man nuclear bombs will make to a Genuine Nuclear war. according you WW2 is still not a "nuclear war"


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@phantom lancer....
i cant understand ur views about nuclear war.though i have used "Nuke attack" instead of "nuke war"
and can u explain "when japan/germany/italy attacked allied thats called war" why not nuke attack on japan define as NUKE WAR??

and yes i understand wd ur views church/pope were not directly attacked Soviets or supporting germans..but they were supported the invasion.

after ww2 they church declare low scale propaganda against communist/socialists/progressive peoples and even today they continue the cold war by condemning the 1)divorce 2)birth control 3)woman lib 4) stem cell research ...etc

anyone can says some of the topics are controversial but we need a fruitful and realistic debate based on scientific theories and social/environmental effects rather than religious morality.

and how can bush the great declare CRUSADE in 21st century without church's consent


Staff member
This line by itself is the greatest showcase of your complete ignorance of other religions and your blind hate .
Please do quote the verses from Bible , Talmud and Koran where it sanctions slave labor
I may be an ignoramus and also a disturbed one as per honorable m-jeri. You would have never asked this question if you have read these books. But since you asked so let us explore the world of Holy Books.

I will quote few nuggets from Quran itself sanctioning Slavery with divine grace of almighty. I am quoting three independent translations for each verses. Also few reference to Tafsir Al-jalalayan too because it gives a comprehensive detail with examples. All these are from neutral Islamic sources only with proper link provided to the source. Italicized words are added by me to clear the meaning in verses where needed.

A slave, according to Abrahamic God, has no power of any sort and have no control over anything, kind of like an object:
God strikes a similitude (mathalan, this is substituted by [the following, ‘abdan mamlūkan]) a slave who is a chattel (mamlūkan, an adjective to distinguish him [this type of slave] from a free man, who is the servant of God [alone]) having no power over anything, since he has no mastery, and one on whom (man, is an indefinite [noun], adjectivally qualified, in other words, a free man) We have bestowed a fair provision from Us, such that he spends thereof secretly and openly, that is, disposing of it as he wishes: the first similitude is for the idols, while the second is His, exalted be He. Are they equal?, the powerless slaves and the dispensing free men? No. Praise belongs to God, alone. But most of them, that is, the people of Mecca, do not know, the chastisement they will come to, and so they associate others with God.
YUSUFALI: Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not.
PICKTHAL: Allah coineth a similitude: (on the one hand) a (mere) chattel slave, who hath control of nothing, and (on the other hand) one on whom we have bestowed a fair provision from Us, and he spendeth thereof secretly and openly. Are they equal? Praise be to Allah! But most of them know not.
SHAKIR: Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from Ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah! Nay, most of them do not know.

Here Allah, the Abrahamic God, condones prostitution (rather forgiving) of slave women, forget about punishing the perpetrator because slaves are lawful only :razz: :
YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
PICKTHAL: And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

One can have sexual intercourse with slave girls even when their husbands are alive. Great Justice by Abrahamic God - the Almighty!
And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp (lolwut? Because marriages of slave women are annulled by default :razz:), but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]; this is what God has prescribed for you (kitāba is in the accusative because it is the verbal noun). Lawful for you (read passive wa-uhilla, or active wa-ahalla), beyond all that, that is, except what He has forbidden you of women, is that you seek, women, using your wealth, by way of a dowry or a price, in wedlock and not, fornicating, in illicitly. Such wives as you enjoy thereby, and have had sexual intercourse with, give them their wages, the dowries that you have assigned them, as an obligation; you are not at fault in agreeing together, you and they, after the obligation, is waived, decreased or increased. God is ever Knowing, of His creatures, Wise, in what He has ordained for them.
YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (slave girls): Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
PICKTHAL: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess (slave girls). It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (slave girls) (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

One reference from Shahi Bukhari too (though not all sects consider Hadiths as accurate). Here his Majesty permit to do oink oink with slave women completely, forget about condemning slavery.
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus (old time birth control method) with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."

There are many more interesting verses about many other amazing things about unbelievers/pagans/idolaters/atheists/homosexuals/witches but I rather not go into these here. First a reader must understand the chronology in Quran. Then one must clear the abrogated verses. Lastly one must see the stark contrast in Mecca and Medina verses with the corresponding history.

But at the end of the day I am just an ignorant, fanatic and disturbed person listening to Sweet Dreams.

@Honorable m-jeri I hope your first question about killing of Christians and Jews during crusades has been answered already. As for the verses about ETERNAL hell, what difference does it make if I quote from Quran or Bible as they are inspired by same Abrahamic God ? So I will save the time and present you the verses from Quran, supposedly uncorrupted book inspired by same God.

Now this verse clearly demarcates the line between a believer and non-believer and the kind of punishment a non believer will receive.
And there are some of them who believe in him, in Muhammad (s), and some of them who bar from him, [who] reject [him] and do not believe. Hell suffices for a blaze, as a chastisement for those who do not believe.

Surely those who disbelieve in Our signs — We shall expose them, We shall admit them, to a Fire, wherein they shall burn; as often as their skins are consumed, burnt, We shall replace them with other skins, restoring them to their initial unburnt state, that they may taste the chastisement, that they may suffer its severity. Surely God is ever Mighty, nothing being beyond His power, Wise, in His creation.

YUSUFALI: Some of them believed, and some of them averted their faces from him: And enough is Hell for a burning fire.
PICKTHAL: And of them were (some) who believed therein and of them were (some) who turned away from it. Hell is sufficient for (their) burning.
SHAKIR: So of them is he who believes in him, and of them is he who turns away from him, and hell is sufficient to burn.

YUSUFALI: Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

And whoever disobeys God and His Messenger, concerning the affirmation of [His] Oneness, and hence does not believe — indeed there will be for him the fire of Hell, abiding (khālidīna is a circumstantial qualifier referring to the person indicated by man, ‘whoever’, in lahu, ‘for him’, taking into account its [plural] import; it [khālidīna] is also an implied circumstantial qualifier, in other words, they shall enter it with their abiding having been preordained) therein forever’

Yes, People of tolerance and wisdom .She is considered a great writer in India are you trying to discredit her .
Even though i am not a Muslim i respect it very much [as i do all religions] . Thats what i call tolerance . I am ofcourse not talking about the radical version of Islam which some ppl tend to follow
If pseudo secularism is tolerance then yes you are right. Remember you are the one who is so pleased to send 1.1 billion people to Eternal Hell. I will bid you goodbye when I reach there. I have respect for people and not the hateful dogmas.

Everything you said happened . But was it because of Islam the religion ?
Read Baburnama and fine references to Quran justifying great historical conquests. Also do find sometime to go to nearest library (if possible an Islamic one) and read the accounts of notable Islamic historians. It will give you enough dough to knead. I have only scratched the crust of subject matter here, interested one may dwell further deep into it.

So much for his love for Arabs and Muslims eh ? He did not stop there he also went on to sack the Islamic caliphate the heart of Muslim world
And he was supposed to be Muslim !
Remember what happened to Caliphates and why Sunni Shia happened ? Sunni call Shia as Unbelievers and vice versa. Ahamediyya are called unbelievers by both Sunni and Shia. Inter marriage among these sects are prohibited and so with the people of other faiths as per Sharia (Sunni girl cannot marry Shia boy as he is a kafir (infidel)). So that makes all Muslims Non-Muslims depending upon the sectarian spectacles you are wearing.

Since you have thrown a Gandhi rhetoric then there are several accounts from Ghandi Ji himself about his experiences with missionaries. Some of the exchanges are remarkable, and reveal the supple intellect of the Mahatma. Gandhi Ji recounts an incident:

(From a missionary) 'You cannot understand the beauty of our religion. From what you say it appears that you must be brooding over your transgressions every moment of your life, always mending them and atoning for them. How can this ceaseless cycle of action bring you redemption? You can never have peace. You admit that we are all sinners. Now look at the perfection of our belief. Our attempts at improvement and atonement are futile. And yet redemption we must have. How can we bear the burden of sin? We can but throw it on Jesus. He is the only sinless Son of God. It is His word that those who believe in Him shall have everlasting life. Therein lies God's infinite mercy. And as we believe in the atonement of Jesus, our own sins do not bind us. Sin we must. It is impossible to live in this world sinless. And therefore Jesus suffered and atoned for all the sins of mankind. Only he who accepts His great redemption can have eternal peace. Think what a life of restlessness is yours, and what a promise of peace we have.'

The argument utterly failed to convince me. I (Gandhi Ji) humbly replied:

'If this be the Christianity acknowledged by all Christians, I cannot accept it. I do not seek redemption from the consequences of my sin. I seek to be redeemed from sin itself, or rather from the very thought of sin. Until I have attained that end, I shall be content to be restless.'

See the profoundness in Gandhi Ji's thoughts ? And further Gandhi Ji was against the business of conversion by Missionaries which is unfortunately overlooked by Indian Government now with the provision of special rights to minorities instead of UCC. Liberation from Britishers was an ideological battle too which you feel reluctant to acknowledge/

He must be in Hell now :( Hey, wait...then many good people are in Hell making it a nice and cozy place ! :lol:

I think here we can agree to disagree. You have your own reservations about a topic and I have mine. Most probably my last post in here. Thanks.

@Honorable m-jeri
Hindu is a geographical term. There were Buddhists, Jews, atheists, agnostics and various sects etc too living in India when they were termed as Hindu by Persians. You cannot deny the fact...however hard you can try.

My whole PC is Made in China except for few HDDs :(
In some years be ready to learn Mandarin :D
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