nikhilsharma007nikx
Wassup?
LOL ?
A viable option to drift away from IIT?
OP
GamerSlayer
ProdiGeek
What I mean is that I haven't seen any Coaching institute just for SAT preparation. So, then is it just self-study? And in any case, coaching for IIT may be of higher level as compared to SAT. Won't that help?
seamon
Superhuman Spambot
SAT=English. I have never seen a coaching institute teaching English.
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Alright, you seriously need to look at some SAT prep books before asking pointless questions.
AcceleratorX
Youngling
I will offer you my own perspective on this matter and I hope it helps you decide what is best for you.
I was personally, not very good in school. I was average - good in some subjects, weak in others. Generally I'd score in 70s-80s range (pathetic by today's standards but average then). I did, however, hold an interest in engineering and technology. I'd tinker around with practical apparatus in the chemistry lab every day. I'd try to understand reaction mechanisms and colouration caused by various reagents. I'd try to see the kinetics, etc. I used to debug code in my spare time - I was a computer whiz once, deeply interested in software as well as hardware. I used to top the computer science subjects at school, which sadly had only a grade and were never part of the total marks in the report card.
When it came down to it, all of my interests were discouraged by immediate society in favour of studying harder to get more marks in 10th, 12th and then the entrances. But I never prepared seriously, thinking that I must clear an exam of my own volition and not by being "coached" for it.
I suffered very badly for it. I was interested in only two branches: Computer Science/Engineering and Chemical Engineering due to my childhood tinkering in both those fields. Due to my entrance marks, I forgot about IIT, NIT and BITS or even my two favourite branches: They were all out of reach. I could not even get BSc in Computer Science with my 12th score. I ended up studying a branch that I was only partially keen on in a 3rd tier college in the city. Nearly all my dreams, all my interest was killed in that one year of 12th. I was not keen on dropping, because I had never attended coaching in my life and I was not prepared to start now. I took the ball that was given to me (and later, I would find out that most people, including the toppers, also took the best available option rather than what they really desired).
The kicker was that my interest was never related to a desire for a job. I wished to study because I had an interest. But, with the Indian education system, that does not take into account any practical skills or even a statement of purpose, I had been ditched. Over the years, I accepted the situation. The college taught as well as it could with its extremely limited resources. But basically I did self study. I passed, somehow with decent marks. In terms of practice I was/am decent with my branch of specialization today. Over time, I did manage to try and link myself with other branches by means of magazines and self study of textbooks from other branches. It took a lot of time, and money.
But the aspirations for getting a job of my fellow friend engineers took away my desire and interest to study what I really wanted and made my life ten times more difficult for it. Can I blame them? No. But even for postgraduation, a similar situation prevails. You have an easier option in the US, where you can pick and choose majors (or minor if you could not get your desired major) and can always choose electives to suit your own interests. This is just not there in India.
The earlier posters are right: Indian education system is not designed for people who wish to study and/or research. It is intended, meant and deliberately favours those who have a "I need to get job" mentality. If you fall into this crowd, I suggest you stick to India. If not, go the USA way. Don't get me wrong, Indian education system is not bad at all, it does have a decent quality to it, but you need to understand who it is meant for. You can be like me and still be successful, it just takes much more effort in India than in the USA.
I hope this gives you a better perspective on the matters. The USA probably has it's own cons as well. Nothing is inherently good or bad as such, it just depends on what suits you and what doesn't. No one can objectively judge intelligence by the means of any one test, that is why the USA has a holistic approach to admissions.
I was personally, not very good in school. I was average - good in some subjects, weak in others. Generally I'd score in 70s-80s range (pathetic by today's standards but average then). I did, however, hold an interest in engineering and technology. I'd tinker around with practical apparatus in the chemistry lab every day. I'd try to understand reaction mechanisms and colouration caused by various reagents. I'd try to see the kinetics, etc. I used to debug code in my spare time - I was a computer whiz once, deeply interested in software as well as hardware. I used to top the computer science subjects at school, which sadly had only a grade and were never part of the total marks in the report card.
When it came down to it, all of my interests were discouraged by immediate society in favour of studying harder to get more marks in 10th, 12th and then the entrances. But I never prepared seriously, thinking that I must clear an exam of my own volition and not by being "coached" for it.
I suffered very badly for it. I was interested in only two branches: Computer Science/Engineering and Chemical Engineering due to my childhood tinkering in both those fields. Due to my entrance marks, I forgot about IIT, NIT and BITS or even my two favourite branches: They were all out of reach. I could not even get BSc in Computer Science with my 12th score. I ended up studying a branch that I was only partially keen on in a 3rd tier college in the city. Nearly all my dreams, all my interest was killed in that one year of 12th. I was not keen on dropping, because I had never attended coaching in my life and I was not prepared to start now. I took the ball that was given to me (and later, I would find out that most people, including the toppers, also took the best available option rather than what they really desired).
The kicker was that my interest was never related to a desire for a job. I wished to study because I had an interest. But, with the Indian education system, that does not take into account any practical skills or even a statement of purpose, I had been ditched. Over the years, I accepted the situation. The college taught as well as it could with its extremely limited resources. But basically I did self study. I passed, somehow with decent marks. In terms of practice I was/am decent with my branch of specialization today. Over time, I did manage to try and link myself with other branches by means of magazines and self study of textbooks from other branches. It took a lot of time, and money.
But the aspirations for getting a job of my fellow friend engineers took away my desire and interest to study what I really wanted and made my life ten times more difficult for it. Can I blame them? No. But even for postgraduation, a similar situation prevails. You have an easier option in the US, where you can pick and choose majors (or minor if you could not get your desired major) and can always choose electives to suit your own interests. This is just not there in India.
The earlier posters are right: Indian education system is not designed for people who wish to study and/or research. It is intended, meant and deliberately favours those who have a "I need to get job" mentality. If you fall into this crowd, I suggest you stick to India. If not, go the USA way. Don't get me wrong, Indian education system is not bad at all, it does have a decent quality to it, but you need to understand who it is meant for. You can be like me and still be successful, it just takes much more effort in India than in the USA.
I hope this gives you a better perspective on the matters. The USA probably has it's own cons as well. Nothing is inherently good or bad as such, it just depends on what suits you and what doesn't. No one can objectively judge intelligence by the means of any one test, that is why the USA has a holistic approach to admissions.
powerhoney
Cyborg Agent
Very well said!!!
nikhilsharma007nikx
Wassup?
Now, I don't think he is going in the right path even after all those posts !
AcceleratorX
Youngling
powerhoney said:Very well said!!!
Thank you. I wanted to add something to that post but cut it short due to work constraints. I am not saying my life is screwed or something, I'm fine and happy with it - I did manage to get close to what I originally wanted to do. What I wanted to say is that it took a lot more effort than it would have had I just gone as per my original desire/wish (for e.g. studying say, something like process control instrumentation or chemical kinetics by yourself is much, much tougher than if you studied it as part of your B.Tech). In the USA, things are not so rigid. You *can* have a minor in chemistry and a major in engineering (for example) in the same 4 year course, no one stops you but you yourself.
This is all the thoughts I can offer on this topic. OP should think about what he really wants to do and decide based on my previous post and other posters' opinions given here.
OP
GamerSlayer
ProdiGeek
I loved your post AcceleratorX. USA is and always will be my choice. And btw, I felt, you really wanted to say in your first post in this thread that Indian Education System sucks. Again, don't get ME wrong, this is my opinion. I understood one thing from your post though, 'Whatever you do, wherever you go, hardwork pays it all.'
[MENTION=248727]seamon[/MENTION] I will look for the books you suggested and self-study.
[MENTION=146650]nikhilsharma007nikx[/MENTION] You have good judgement but it always turns out to be wrong. No offence.
[MENTION=248727]seamon[/MENTION] I will look for the books you suggested and self-study.
[MENTION=146650]nikhilsharma007nikx[/MENTION] You have good judgement but it always turns out to be wrong. No offence.
nikhilsharma007nikx
Wassup?
LOL?why is that ?
Self-education will always lose to the system, but as an alternative to completely get away!
AcceleratorX
Youngling
KlukiRt said:
The only ones who win in the present system are the coaching classes who advertise themselves as the "masters of science" with first page ads on major newspapers (when, in reality, they hire passouts of IITs and other universities to teach before they have had significant research experience). Exam oriented learning has already eroded the knowledge base, driven away talented people from the nation and suppressed the hard working student class who cannot afford or don't want to go for tuitions. In the coming years the country will see full, final and permanent consequences of this system that intentionally preyed on parents' expectations and students' gullibility in education. This phenomenon has now also spread to the GATE exam with coaching centres spreading like fungi, and PSUs and universities taking the easy way out by selecting on the basis of GATE rank only (A guy I know with rank 2004 did not get any good institute or PSU in his branch - given the 1.36 lakh aspirants, that was a 99th percentile candidate not getting even an interview!).
We have an entire generation of students who have been coached from their childhood to adulthood to succeed in science papers by educators who only teach how to clear a paper (and not the nuances of the subject). How will they handle it if the training wheels are taken out? It's not to say the Indian education system outright sucks but it is targeted towards a student who frankly has no idea what he is doing or wants to do.
We can complain all we want about brain drain but in the end, our system has actively pushed away anyone with even a sliver of focus, clarity and imagination in his head.
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T
The Conqueror
Guest
Well, I just completed my second year, and your story seems a lot like mine.
In my case I had a *strong* inclination for coding and in general working with computers. In school, no matter how hard I tried, I always scored in 70s-80s. I too used to *top* computer science subjects and even won several gold medals. But alas, when I was in 11th, I was trapped in the 'rat race' and couldn't get out. I did not join any coaching and because of my persistent ego (Why should they judge my aptitude for computer science on the basis of Chemistry score) ensured that I failed miserably at the primer engineering entrances. I never wanted to compromise my interest for the sake of brand name college.
So, I took admission in a tier-3 engineering college which is at a walking distance from my home. Here you are discouraged to learn, and explore. The focus is just on scoring X/100 marks in university exams. The so-called toppers cannot even turn on the system. They don't know about Open Source development. They don't know about Internships. They don't know about anything else that is not present outside their local 'guide-book'. Forget coding. The so-called 9.8 pointers don't even know what is debugging. TurboC++ FTW!
As AcceleratorX rightly said, it is possible to even succeed from this environment, but it is MUCH, MUCH harder than what the guys in US go through.
nikhilsharma007nikx
Wassup?
I think I should share my experience.
(I passed 12th this year and gave SAT + Subject Test + IELTS this year)
Like all of you I was totally disgusted with the marks based education system of India. I had stopped studying seriously in 12th std. In fact I was desperate to escape the IIT mania. I come from a well off family but affording a US undergrad was beyond us (it costs about 60,000$ per year!). It was obvious that I had to apply only to those universities who provide need based financial aid to students.
Now the thing is that there are very few such universities in the US. Most US colleges see international students as a source of income. Only a handful of US schools give need based financial assistance to International students. Some of them are- MIT, Ivy Leagues, Stanford etc. Other universities give some scholarships but they don't guarantee to cover the full expense, plus they don't provide a very rigorous education anyway.
Do you see where this going? Getting admission into these colleges is freaking hard as an international student.
Since I had good grades in 9th and 10th and 90% in 11th, I decided to apply. I gave all the tests and scored well, 2200/2400 in SAT and 800/800 in both Math2 and Physics Subject Tests. I took a lot of time to write my essays properly and got good recommendations from my teachers. I also got the required score in IELTS and then made a list of US universities and then applied to them. I thought that I had a good chance of getting through.
Doing all the above cost about 50,000 rupees and took up a lot of my time. Very soon I realized that I was in deep trouble. Boards were just a few months away and hadn't started preparing. Somehow I prepared enough to get 90% in them (I could easily get 95% if I hadn't wasted my time).
While giving boards my admission decisions started coming. I got rejected from five universities and got wait-listed by two. My only consolation was getting wait-listed by my dream university. (One month later I got rejected by it as well, although they called me an excellent scholar in the e-mail).
After this I had two options-
i)Sit down and cry
ii)Prepare for jee with whatever time I had
Thankfully I chose the second option. I studied sincerely and gave jee Main and Advanced. The funny thing is that I scored decently in both of them. I even got a rank in jee advanced but it was useless for a general category student. My mains rank was ruined by the idiotic jee mains normalisation formula ("only" 90% in boards) . I was screwed and was seriously considering dropping an year. Thankfully though, I managed to clear BITSAT.
Well what is the lesson to learn from this?
Applying abroad may not be such a good idea if you are over reliant on financial aid. The US application process is both expensive and time consuming. Even after a lot of investment there is no guarantee of any kind. You can get rejected for any random reason and not even know about it. Due to increasing awareness there are hundreds of Indian applicants for every university. The truth is that only 10-20 students out of them get selected.
My advice is to apply abroad only if
i)Your parents are rich and willing to spend a lot for your education.
OR
ii)You are a rare kind of genius who has international Olympiad medal or similar recognition.
ii)Else you have a very good hardworking attitude and can somehow not get distracted from your studies while applying abroad. (Do such people even exist!?)
Yes, the Indian education system sucks, but running away from it is not so easy. Think about it this way- When you hate something what will make you happier? Running from it.....or fighting and ultimately beating it?
(I passed 12th this year and gave SAT + Subject Test + IELTS this year)
Like all of you I was totally disgusted with the marks based education system of India. I had stopped studying seriously in 12th std. In fact I was desperate to escape the IIT mania. I come from a well off family but affording a US undergrad was beyond us (it costs about 60,000$ per year!). It was obvious that I had to apply only to those universities who provide need based financial aid to students.
Now the thing is that there are very few such universities in the US. Most US colleges see international students as a source of income. Only a handful of US schools give need based financial assistance to International students. Some of them are- MIT, Ivy Leagues, Stanford etc. Other universities give some scholarships but they don't guarantee to cover the full expense, plus they don't provide a very rigorous education anyway.
Do you see where this going? Getting admission into these colleges is freaking hard as an international student.
Since I had good grades in 9th and 10th and 90% in 11th, I decided to apply. I gave all the tests and scored well, 2200/2400 in SAT and 800/800 in both Math2 and Physics Subject Tests. I took a lot of time to write my essays properly and got good recommendations from my teachers. I also got the required score in IELTS and then made a list of US universities and then applied to them. I thought that I had a good chance of getting through.
Doing all the above cost about 50,000 rupees and took up a lot of my time. Very soon I realized that I was in deep trouble. Boards were just a few months away and hadn't started preparing. Somehow I prepared enough to get 90% in them (I could easily get 95% if I hadn't wasted my time).
While giving boards my admission decisions started coming. I got rejected from five universities and got wait-listed by two. My only consolation was getting wait-listed by my dream university. (One month later I got rejected by it as well, although they called me an excellent scholar in the e-mail).
After this I had two options-
i)Sit down and cry
ii)Prepare for jee with whatever time I had
Thankfully I chose the second option. I studied sincerely and gave jee Main and Advanced. The funny thing is that I scored decently in both of them. I even got a rank in jee advanced but it was useless for a general category student. My mains rank was ruined by the idiotic jee mains normalisation formula ("only" 90% in boards) . I was screwed and was seriously considering dropping an year. Thankfully though, I managed to clear BITSAT.
Well what is the lesson to learn from this?
Applying abroad may not be such a good idea if you are over reliant on financial aid. The US application process is both expensive and time consuming. Even after a lot of investment there is no guarantee of any kind. You can get rejected for any random reason and not even know about it. Due to increasing awareness there are hundreds of Indian applicants for every university. The truth is that only 10-20 students out of them get selected.
My advice is to apply abroad only if
i)Your parents are rich and willing to spend a lot for your education.
OR
ii)You are a rare kind of genius who has international Olympiad medal or similar recognition.
ii)Else you have a very good hardworking attitude and can somehow not get distracted from your studies while applying abroad. (Do such people even exist!?)
Yes, the Indian education system sucks, but running away from it is not so easy. Think about it this way- When you hate something what will make you happier? Running from it.....or fighting and ultimately beating it?
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seamon
Superhuman Spambot
Mind if I ask some questions?
1.What ECs did you have?
2.What univs did you apply to?
3.Which was your dream univ?
1)I am a national level chess player, so ECs like fourth rank in CBSE west zone chess, chess district champion etc. Other academic ECs like good ranks in mathematical Olympiads.
2)Mostly Ivies with others like WashU in St.L, U of C thrown in. All were top 50 schools that give full aid to international students. Didn't apply to "superselective" schools like MIT, Caltech etc.
3)University of Chicago for its high academic rigour.
Other thing I want to add is that I don't regret applying abroad. Writing those essays and giving some interviews led to a lot of introspection for me. At the same time I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I tried.
nikhilsharma007nikx
Wassup?
Im pretty shocked !
You got 2200 in SAT and also crossed IIT with such little time for preparing! wow ! HATS OFF to you buddy!
I have also decided to leave the SAT option and going with IIT. so i just want to ask a few questions about it.
!. did you go to any coaching center for preparation for JEE ?
2. How did you prepared yourself in such a short time period ?
3. Whats that 90% percent thing you were talking about that crapped your JEE mains result ?
Thanks, I did cross IIT but a general category student cant get much with the rank I got.
1)I joined a coaching centre and was somewhat sincere in 11th. However I stopped attending classes regularly somewhere in 12th.
2)After boards I joined a "crash course" with another coaching. It was good but I was too weak in chemistry. In two months i could only sharpen my physical chem. Most benefit was in physics, I solved many good physics problems during this time.
3)This is the thing which everyone should know. Even if you score well in jee mains, your rank will be decided mostly by your board marks. If you get below 92% in boards chances of getting an NIT will become very less.
To use a gaming analogy, if Jee Main signifies a CPU then your board percentage will be the GPU. After getting a decent CPU you should spend most money on GPU. It is easy to bottle-neck your GPU but not your CPU. In other words aim for 95% in boards. Its not even that difficult since questions are pretty predictable, only hard work is required.
seamon
Superhuman Spambot
[MENTION=144636]kaelthas[/MENTION]
I can see why you didn't get selected.
2200 is an extremely low score for an international applicant for Ivies and UChicago.
Did you apply to any safeties? Like Rice university, UMass Amherst or even Purdue. These colleges are very good for engineering.
You come in the High Reach category in all of the universities you listed. It should have been obvious that you would be rejected.
Asking for financial aid must have been the final blow to your application as most of these schools are need-aware.
You ECs don't have width. Did you hold any positions of leadership in school?
Harvard regularly rejects national applicants with 2400 SAT score who don't ask for aid.
I can see why you didn't get selected.
2200 is an extremely low score for an international applicant for Ivies and UChicago.
Did you apply to any safeties? Like Rice university, UMass Amherst or even Purdue. These colleges are very good for engineering.
You come in the High Reach category in all of the universities you listed. It should have been obvious that you would be rejected.
Asking for financial aid must have been the final blow to your application as most of these schools are need-aware.
You ECs don't have width. Did you hold any positions of leadership in school?
Harvard regularly rejects national applicants with 2400 SAT score who don't ask for aid.