UPS problem in low voltage, power fluctuation, PC getting restart..

[westom]

are all UPS defective? Same result with Intex also.

You are again concluding without numbers. Claims without numbers should be rejected or ignored immediately. Too subjective.

Defined were numbers. Power supply will state how long it operates without any input power. Supplies that do not are often dumped into the market by Asian manufacturers who are selling to computer assemblers. People often with little technical knowledge and who routinely ignore relevant numbers.

All supplies should work even longer than the spec numbers. A UPS must switchover without causing a noticeable bulb flicker. Without causing a short 'no power' blackout. But if either manufacturer does not provide numbers in tech specs, then failure is directly traceable to the consumer.

If it does not come with a long list of numeric specs, then you should be rejecting it immediately. 97% of consumers have no idea what those numbers mean. No numbers means the 1% who know can say nothing. Leaves you setup to be scammed. Only way the informed 1% can warn you is if the product comes with lots of spec numbers.

What is the switchover time for your UPS? You posted no numbers because, as a layman, you have no equipment to measure. And you did not post manufacturer spec numbers. So every answer is only a best guess. Your replies are only as useful as the facts (numbers) that you provide.

Learn why the word 'definitive' is so important. 'Definitive' starts with numbers - ie switchover time. To avoid problems, always demand numbers. A too short spec sheet implies the worst - even if a majority recommend that product.

Reason for your problems are defined. Why would you sue when you did not even bother to do what every informed consumer must do? First get the numbers.

 

[avichandana20000]

@ kool what is the manufacturing date of your UPS?

Your instance is not enough to sue APC as many of us are using this Brand UPS without any problem. I have done the bulb tst. but it does not flicker. The battery may be at its end of life. So check the manufacturing date fast.(after 20 shop hopping u found that. so it is not very regular product at your place. Stock may be old.)

again it is a wild guess.

also register your product over the net and screw them up regarding your problem It is having onsite warranty.

so sue them if they do not agree to come at your place.

*www.theitbazaar.com/store/our-shop...s&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=534&vmcchk=1

 

[kool]

You are again concluding without numbers. Claims without numbers should be rejected or ignored immediately. Too subjective.

Defined were numbers. Power supply will state how long it operates without any input power. Supplies that do not are often dumped into the market by Asian manufacturers who are selling to computer assemblers. People often with little technical knowledge and who routinely ignore relevant numbers.

All supplies should work even longer than the spec numbers. A UPS must switchover without causing a noticeable bulb flicker. Without causing a short 'no power' blackout. But if either manufacturer does not provide numbers in tech specs, then failure is directly traceable to the consumer.

If it does not come with a long list of numeric specs, then you should be rejecting it immediately. 97% of consumers have no idea what those numbers mean. No numbers means the 1% who know can say nothing. Leaves you setup to be scammed. Only way the informed 1% can warn you is if the product comes with lots of spec numbers.

What is the switchover time for your UPS? You posted no numbers because, as a layman, you have no equipment to measure. And you did not post manufacturer spec numbers. So every answer is only a best guess. Your replies are only as useful as the facts (numbers) that you provide.

Learn why the word 'definitive' is so important. 'Definitive' starts with numbers - ie switchover time. To avoid problems, always demand numbers. A too short spec sheet implies the worst - even if a majority recommend that product.

Reason for your problems are defined. Why would you sue when you did not even bother to do what every informed consumer must do? First get the numbers.

What no. u r talking about? How to find that?

And tell me one thing How a non-technical person will understand all these while buying UPS, PSU, PC, LAPTOP etc. Why they never put these no. in any advertisement or in any shop, they provide only little information with price tag.

@ kool what is the manufacturing date of your UPS?

Your instance is not enough to sue APC as many of us are using this Brand UPS without any problem. I have done the bulb tst. but it does not flicker. The battery may be at its end of life. So check the manufacturing date fast.(after 20 shop hopping u found that. so it is not very regular product at your place. Stock may be old.)

again it is a wild guess.

also register your product over the net and screw them up regarding your problem It is having onsite warranty.

so sue them if they do not agree to come at your place.

APC ES 650VA 230V BACK UPS 2 YRS ON SITE WARRANTY

MFG DATE: January 2011. I've bought from a very big store where it sells only Dell laptop.

 

[westom]

How a non-technical person will understand all these while buying UPS, PSU, PC, LAPTOP etc.

That answer was posted.

If it does not come with a long list of numeric specs, then you should be rejecting it immediately. 97% of consumers have no idea what those numbers mean. No numbers means the 1% who know can say nothing. Leaves you setup to be scammed. Only way the informed 1% can warn you is if the product comes with lots of spec numbers.

Why are you shopping in stores that sell products without spec numbers? Therein lies a damning question.

In this case, the more honest manufacturer will provide a number for the switchover time that is typically less than 13 milliseconds. If not, then assume numbers are not provided because it does not switchover fast enough. More honest manufacturers provide spec numbers.

Meanwhile, from the only crude experiment possible, that UPS is switching over so poorly as to flicker an incandescent bulb. That (as best I can tell from your posts) is also when a computer crashes. When the UPS is doing something it should not be doing, then the computer crashes. Is that a coincidence? Maybe.

 

[avichandana20000]

MFG DATE: January 2011. I've bought from a very big store where it sells only Dell laptop.

So call them immediately to visit your place stating the problem simple saying that your PC is getting restarted during power fluctuations and power cut.

is there any chance that you can test this ups in your friend's system?

 

[kool]

So call them immediately to visit your place stating the problem simple saying that your PC is getting restarted during power fluctuations and power cut.

is there any chance that you can test this ups in your friend's system?

OK, i'll test on my friend's PC. BTW, m just waiting for my PSU. after that they gonna have to pay, if it restarts again.

Recently i received my security money of Rs.20,000 from my college, within 10days after leaving college(legal notice). and other guys are still waiting for 6 month. Nokia gave me new cellphone, because current handset was not working, and all the service center give only one excuse "circuit may be shorted due to one drop of water". These peoples just make business, but dont care for quality and service.

 

[avichandana20000]

OK, i'll test on my friend's PC. BTW, m just waiting for my PSU. after that they gonna have to pay, if it restarts again.

Recently i received my security money of Rs.20,000 from my college, within 10days after leaving college(legal notice). and other guys are still waiting for 6 month. Nokia gave me new cellphone, because current handset was not working, and all the service center give only one excuse "circuit may be shorted due to one drop of water". These peoples just make business, but dont care for quality and service.

some one like u is very much needed for KOLKATA RASHI PERIPHERALS to protect commom people interest.

 

[kool]

some one like u is very much needed for KOLKATA RASHI PERIPHERALS to protect commom people interest.

whats dat?

 

[dashing.sujay]

To create 3 or 5 volts, first a supply filters AC mains. Then converts AC to DC. Then increases that voltage to something well above 300 volts. Then more filters. Then converts that high voltage to high voltage radio waves - spikes sharper than anything typically seen on AC mains. Then galvanic isolation ... layers and layers of protection. After making AC power into something far more 'dirty', then a power supply converts that dirtier power into something 'cleanest'. Converting from 'dirtiest' to 'cleanest' means anomalies on AC mains are made irrelevant. A power supply must suffer thousands of volt spikes on AC mains without causing any effect on its low voltage DC outputs.

Power supplies are amazing. Must do more functions that most would not even think about. And must do all that for almost no money. Described are those layers in numbers. To create stable low voltages, power supplies first create even higher voltage spikes.

Pimpon has described one example of passive circuits found in multiple layers inside all supplies. Layers separated by active circuits that do further functions.

Then another power supply only for the CPU does all this all over again. Making the CPU one of the most resilient items inside a computer - as defined previously.

More resiliency. To have damage, means current must be incoming from one direction. And outgoing on another. CPU has an incoming path and no outgoing path. Without both paths, then no current to do damage. As pimpon says, "To cause damage, the surge must pass through the more sensitive sections". That means separate incoming and outgoing paths must always exist to have damage. Electricity does not enter on one path, do damage and stop. Another reason why CPUs are even that much more resilient. And a problem. Most laymen even forget that 'incoming and outgoing' rule that was taught in elementary school science.

Pimpon has described subjectively how passive circuits work. Has introduced some concepts that must become obvious knowledge to make any technical conclusions. To make conclusions, everything also must be quantified by numbers. Which means quoting specifications by reams to be making judgments. (If anything does not provide a long list of specs, then suspect the worst - a scam.) Any conclusion made from subjective facts implies one all but wants to be scammed.

Provided are hard facts even from Intel's ATX Standards. 1000 volt spikes on AC mains must be made irrelevant by all computer power supplies. 'Dirtiest' power from a UPS is also ideal power for all electronics. Protection so robust that motherboard damage usually means a transient had to bypass a power supply. That, BTW, is why a power strip protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground can even make computer damage easier.


I am confused by kool's videos that only show a mechanical meter. If grasping numbers, then that meter obviously would not report relevant facts. Defined were events that occur in milliseconds. Events that would not move any mechanical meter. Meter readings, that summarize voltages averaged over a second, say nothing useful on millisecond events that might cause his computer lockup. The video camera should have been focused only on the light bulb. Because the test is about whether the light bulb flickers for tens of milliseconds. Because a layman typically has no other tool capable of quantifying (measuring) an anomaly that short.

Conclusions always mean answers quantified in numbers. Numbers even say why low voltage power supplies make thousand of volt sharp spikes irrelevant. But numbers from that video recorded meter don't say anything relevant to his computer lockups.

One final point. If any paragraph in this or previous posts is new, then it will not be understood without at least three rereads. I need at least three rereads on anything new to comprehend it. Many above paragraphs are chock full of information. Require multiple rereads to grasp everything summarized.

Ok, thnx for such a wonderful explanation. Further doubts-

1)If a power supply is so robust that it can suffer 1000's of volt spikes on AC mains without causing any effect on its low voltage DC outputs, then why can't it is made such that to protect the electronic equipments attached ot it (here CPU, mobo) ? Is it technically very tough or impossible ? I mean it should also act as an spike buster, and if any spike comes having intensity larger than power supply's capacity to handle, then PSU should cut the line like a fuse or get itself damaged.!!

2) What is this funda of "another power supply" for CPU ? never heard of it

3)And i have too forgotten "incoming andoutgoing" rule It is -ve and +ve striking against each other ? pls xplain.

4)Dirtiest' power from a UPS is also ideal power for all electronics, but isn't it applicable when a power supply is used alongwith them to provide "cleaner" low voltage current as required by the electronics ? If its so, every device/machine out there must be equipped with an internal power supply ?

5)"That, BTW, is why a power strip protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground can even make computer damage easier." Didn't got it.
And yeah i had to read multiple times to understand and summarize all the points

What no. u r talking about? How to find that?

And tell me one thing How a non-technical person will understand all these while buying UPS, PSU, PC, LAPTOP etc. Why they never put these no. in any advertisement or in any shop, they provide only little information with price tag.

He's talking about internal spec nos, such as switch time, operating voltage, frequency, and blah blah. find them in the mannual provided.
A non-technical person will either learn like us or take help of technical persons like pimpom & westom or semi technical persons like us

Recently i received my security money of Rs.20,000 from my college, within 10days after leaving college(legal notice). and other guys are still waiting for 6 month. Nokia gave me new cellphone, because current handset was not working, and all the service center give only one excuse "circuit may be shorted due to one drop of water". These peoples just make business, but dont care for quality and service[/I].

Power of DAD
And i've heard for the first time that nokia has replaced a faulty set with a new one, lucky U
BTW in which college are and doing .. ?

some one like u is very much needed for KOLKATA RASHI PERIPHERALS to protect commom people interest.

whats dat?

RASHI PERIPHERALS is a famous but "badly reputed" tech store for its after sales service in kolkata, and it doesnt listens to ppl's problems, unless ppl like you show them the power of their DAD SC power

 

[westom]

1)If a power supply is so robust that it can suffer 1000's of volt spikes on AC mains without causing any effect on its low voltage DC outputs, then why can't it is made such that to protect the electronic equipments attached ot it (here CPU, mobo) ? … I mean it should also act as an spike buster, and if any spike comes having intensity larger than power supply's capacity to handle, then PSU should cut the line like a fuse or get itself damaged.!!

This and question five were answered previously. For example, let's assume a 6000 volt surge approaches the computer and protector on the black hot wire. The adjacent protector simply connects that surge to all other wires. For example, 6000 volts on the black wire. 5,500 volts on the white and green wire. Now those 5,500 volts are connected directly to the motherboard. Completely bypass protection inside the PSU.

Anything that would protect by going open circuit does no protection. Again, voltage simply increases to blow through that open gap – that cannot open fast enough. Fuses and switches takes tens of milliseconds (or longer) to open. A surge is done in microseconds.

We saw ‘adjacent protector’ damage when a few power strip protectors earthed a surge through a network of powered off computers. We literally traced that surge by replacing each damaged semiconductor. Restored all computers. Surge found earth ground via two computers. Into a third computer. And out to earth destructively via that third computer's modem and telephone line. Protectors bypassed protection inside those computer’s PSUs.

Once inside, a surge will increase voltage as necessary to blow through anything that might stop it. IOW a surge permitted inside the building will increase voltage as necessary to overwhelm superior protection already inside appliances. Generally, that means a surge finds other paths rather than blow through better protection inside a PSU.

Power supplies are full of safety features. For example, short all PSU outputs together and power on that supply. A short circuit must cause no damage to any PSU. In fact, Intel even says how thick that shorting wire must be. Because no power supply can be harmed by a short circuit or its load. Just another of so many functions inside every supply.

Power supplies contain separate circuits that shorts should its voltage become too high. Often called an overvoltage crowbar. Intel ATX specs even state what a maximum voltages can be. Ie 5 volts will be shorted out before and therefore never exceed 6.5 volts. Well below a semiconductor's maximum 7 volts. Another example of why a supply does not cause motherboard damage.

Question two: a CPU's power supply has torroids and electrolytic capacitors adjacent to the CPU. The original Pentium required this supply to provide current from less than 1 amp to tens of amps in only microseconds. That requirement could only be met by a dedicated power supply adjacent to the CPU. All Pentiums have a dedicated and adjacent power supply.

Q three: -Ve and +Ve means a same destructive current is on both wires. To appreciate this means learning about something beyond layman's knowledge - longitudinal and normal mode currents. For example, a wire could carry different signals on the same wire. The receiver is designed to decode either one or the other. Two different electrical currents on the same wire. You are thinking in terms of one type. Destructive surges are the other.

Another example is in the topmost example. Voltage between a black and white AC wires is only 500 volts. Meanwhile a 6000 or 5500 volt transient is also pushing through the computer.

Q four: every electronic device contains a power supply. For example, routers typically have a power supply inside the wall wart. And another chip chip power supply inside the router. All electronics have a power supply so that serious variations of AC mains cause no change to internal DC voltages. All portable electronics should have a universal supply so that any AC voltage from 85 to 265 VAC is normal power.

 

[kool]

This and question five were answered previously. For example, let's assume a 6000 volt surge approaches the computer and protector on the black hot wire. The adjacent protector simply connects that surge to all other wires. For example, 6000 volts on the black wire. 5,500 volts on the white and green wire. Now those 5,500 volts are connected directly to the motherboard. Completely bypass protection inside the PSU.

Anything that would protect by going open circuit does no protection. Again, voltage simply increases to blow through that open gap – that cannot open fast enough. Fuses and switches takes tens of milliseconds (or longer) to open. A surge is done in microseconds.

We saw ‘adjacent protector’ damage when a few power strip protectors earthed a surge through a network of powered off computers. We literally traced that surge by replacing each damaged semiconductor. Restored all computers. Surge found earth ground via two computers. Into a third computer. And out to earth destructively via that third computer's modem and telephone line. Protectors bypassed protection inside those computer’s PSUs.

Once inside, a surge will increase voltage as necessary to blow through anything that might stop it. IOW a surge permitted inside the building will increase voltage as necessary to overwhelm superior protection already inside appliances. Generally, that means a surge finds other paths rather than blow through better protection inside a PSU.

Power supplies are full of safety features. For example, short all PSU outputs together and power on that supply. A short circuit must cause no damage to any PSU. In fact, Intel even says how thick that shorting wire must be. Because no power supply can be harmed by a short circuit or its load. Just another of so many functions inside every supply.

Power supplies contain separate circuits that shorts should its voltage become too high. Often called an overvoltage crowbar. Intel ATX specs even state what a maximum voltages can be. Ie 5 volts will be shorted out before and therefore never exceed 6.5 volts. Well below a semiconductor's maximum 7 volts. Another example of why a supply does not cause motherboard damage.

Question two: a CPU's power supply has torroids and electrolytic capacitors adjacent to the CPU. The original Pentium required this supply to provide current from less than 1 amp to tens of amps in only microseconds. That requirement could only be met by a dedicated power supply adjacent to the CPU. All Pentiums have a dedicated and adjacent power supply.

Q three: -Ve and +Ve means a same destructive current is on both wires. To appreciate this means learning about something beyond layman's knowledge - longitudinal and normal mode currents. For example, a wire could carry different signals on the same wire. The receiver is designed to decode either one or the other. Two different electrical currents on the same wire. You are thinking in terms of one type. Destructive surges are the other.

Another example is in the topmost example. Voltage between a black and white AC wires is only 500 volts. Meanwhile a 6000 or 5500 volt transient is also pushing through the computer.

Q four: every electronic device contains a power supply. For example, routers typically have a power supply inside the wall wart. And another chip chip power supply inside the router. All electronics have a power supply so that serious variations of AC mains cause no change to internal DC voltages. All portable electronics should have a universal supply so that any AC voltage from 85 to 265 VAC is normal power.

wow! Hats off to you man! By d way thank god i didn't opt for electrical or electronics engineering.

 

[dashing.sujay]

This and question five were answered previously. For example, let's assume a 6000 volt surge approaches the computer and protector on the black hot wire. The adjacent protector simply connects that surge to all other wires. For example, 6000 volts on the black wire. 5,500 volts on the white and green wire. Now those 5,500 volts are connected directly to the motherboard. Completely bypass protection inside the PSU.

Anything that would protect by going open circuit does no protection. Again, voltage simply increases to blow through that open gap – that cannot open fast enough. Fuses and switches takes tens of milliseconds (or longer) to open. A surge is done in microseconds.

We saw ‘adjacent protector’ damage when a few power strip protectors earthed a surge through a network of powered off computers. We literally traced that surge by replacing each damaged semiconductor. Restored all computers. Surge found earth ground via two computers. Into a third computer. And out to earth destructively via that third computer's modem and telephone line. Protectors bypassed protection inside those computer’s PSUs.

Once inside, a surge will increase voltage as necessary to blow through anything that might stop it. IOW a surge permitted inside the building will increase voltage as necessary to overwhelm superior protection already inside appliances. Generally, that means a surge finds other paths rather than blow through better protection inside a PSU.

Power supplies are full of safety features. For example, short all PSU outputs together and power on that supply. A short circuit must cause no damage to any PSU. In fact, Intel even says how thick that shorting wire must be. Because no power supply can be harmed by a short circuit or its load. Just another of so many functions inside every supply.

Power supplies contain separate circuits that shorts should its voltage become too high. Often called an overvoltage crowbar. Intel ATX specs even state what a maximum voltages can be. Ie 5 volts will be shorted out before and therefore never exceed 6.5 volts. Well below a semiconductor's maximum 7 volts. Another example of why a supply does not cause motherboard damage.

Question two: a CPU's power supply has torroids and electrolytic capacitors adjacent to the CPU. The original Pentium required this supply to provide current from less than 1 amp to tens of amps in only microseconds. That requirement could only be met by a dedicated power supply adjacent to the CPU. All Pentiums have a dedicated and adjacent power supply.

Q three: -Ve and +Ve means a same destructive current is on both wires. To appreciate this means learning about something beyond layman's knowledge - longitudinal and normal mode currents. For example, a wire could carry different signals on the same wire. The receiver is designed to decode either one or the other. Two different electrical currents on the same wire. You are thinking in terms of one type. Destructive surges are the other.

Another example is in the topmost example. Voltage between a black and white AC wires is only 500 volts. Meanwhile a 6000 or 5500 volt transient is also pushing through the computer.

Q four: every electronic device contains a power supply. For example, routers typically have a power supply inside the wall wart. And another chip chip power supply inside the router. All electronics have a power supply so that serious variations of AC mains cause no change to internal DC voltages. All portable electronics should have a universal supply so that any AC voltage from 85 to 265 VAC is normal power.

thnx a ton, now i suppose i got a good understanding of power supplies

 

[kool]

Guys.... tomorrow I'll get my PSU.

By the way today i removed my GFX card, and it didnt restart after that, i checked by pressing ON/OFF main switch. Its working fine.. Now what i'll do with my old Intex UPS. I think its working fine, last year i bought for Rs.1300, still 1 year warranty left. Should i sell to any cyber cafe? Or is there any use of that for mobile charging, or LED bulb lightining for my village where electric supply comes for 3-4 hours only in a day.

 

[dashing.sujay]

Guys.... tomorrow I'll get my PSU.

By the way today i removed my GFX card, and it didnt restart after that, i checked by pressing ON/OFF main switch. Its working fine.. Now what i'll do with my old Intex UPS. I think its working fine, last year i bought for Rs.1300, still 1 year warranty left. Should i sell to any cyber cafe? Or is there any use of that for mobile charging, or LED bulb lightining for my village where electric supply comes for 3-4 hours only in a day.

Post pics of ur PSU when u get it And its now clear that ur PSU was culprit,i.e. not able to take full load of system, thats why its working fine after removing gfx card. And you better sell the UPS as i feel you should.

 

[kool]

Post pics of ur PSU when u get it And its now clear that ur PSU was culprit,i.e. not able to take full load of system, thats why its working fine after removing gfx card. And you better sell the UPS as i feel you should.

w/o gfx restarted once just nw.

 

[dashing.sujay]

w/o gfx restarted once just nw.

maamla kuch gadbad lagta hai

 

[westom]

w/o gfx restarted once just nw.

If a supply was undersized, that problem could have been discovered months ago using a minute of labor and a multimeter.

Normal is for an undersized supply to still boot and run a computer. Also normal is for a perfectly good supply and still have these symptoms. Swapping parts or making conclusions without numbers is how confusion is created.

Theory was that one change eliminated a problem. Then that proves that 'change' fixed a problem. Unfortunately, removing the gfx caused numerous changes. Or may have only cured a symptom. If the PSU was undersized (or had other problems), then a multimeter would have identified it without confusion or doubt. Measuring the new supply when installed would confirm a problem was actually solved.

Meanwhile another suspected problem was identified. A UPS caused an incandescent bulb to flicker when switching to/from battery backup mode. Is that causing CPU crashes? Unknown. But a problem has been identified.

Now a combination of a marginally undersized supply combined with that UPS defect might be sufficient to cause a computer crash. Does not matter. Identify the problems. Solve defects regardless of whether a CPU crash is eliminated. That means not replacing a PSU if numbers exonerate that original PSU as defective. Or use numbers to confirm a new PSU causes some type of improvement. Just because a PSU is replaced says nothing useful. The replacement should eliminate an observable problem. That means numbers.

 

[d6bmg]

w/o gfx restarted once just nw.

Get a new PSU asap.

 

[kool]

Get a new PSU asap.

buddy i'm just waiting for DTDC, i think idiots are celebrating holiday for Rakhi(sat), sunday, independence day(monday). I think nw i'll get it on Tuesday. by the way till nw its restarted only once.

 

[avichandana20000]

^^ have u tested your UPS in any other system?