The official iPhone thread

[aryayush]

The only explanation (valid) i can think of is that by doing this Apple would have lost control on the device.

You don't need to make any guesses. Everyone who knows Steve Jobs even one bit knows why JAVA is not there - because it sucks.

 

[gxsaurav]

Lolz......another pinnacle of your stupidity.

Hey Arya, I am running Yahoo Messenger on my K750i using JAVA. Google Talk & Windows Live messenger too....can u do that in iPhone? Oh wait u can't cos El Jobso didn't wanted to include iChat either. Now I hope u don't say "Who uses mobile phone to chat (read:communicate on net)"

Do u even know how JAVA works & its potential in mobile environment.? Of course u don't else you wouldn't be saying something like that. Go do some research. Just cos your god says it sux doesn't means it sux.

 

[aryayush]

... but it does mean that it is not there on the iPhone and is going to stay that way. Those applications you are talking about are crap. Opera Mini is the only decent JAVA application in the world and the iPhone has the browser that Opera Mini is trying to be so you won't miss it on the iPhone.

The worst applications on Mac OS X are those that are written in JAVA.

 

[aceman]

The firmware available on the net is 96 MB Zip

Tks,This explains a lot of things

a)The OS will run from RAM
b)Cache policy will be write through
c)ARM-11 has a physical cache and not a Logical cache like Arm-9 cores, this makes task switching quite fast and cache does not need to be flushed for every context switch making application switch quite fast.

Yes Java could have been supported but native applications C,C++,MFC are much more faster and granular than Java and do note that Java for a mobile is a horrible mess and is not as refined like its desktop counterpart.I do admit I am not a Huge fan of Java , I personally prefer MFC or .Net than Java anyday.
Regarding the mobile GPU,some phones might already be having the PXA270 connected with Intel 2700 G (which sucks actually) but an additional chip does the following
a)Increases the BOM
b)Increases the Power consuption
c)Increases the Size
Also AMD is making a chip called a Imageon for mobile phones which is supposed to be decent.But from what I see IC's nowdays are shipping with better inbuild video IC's
ex:iMx-31 has a 2D and 3D accelerator, PXA320 ships with a video accelrator with 768kb of frame buffer memory...etc.For example when decoding a H.264 matrix movie on a Pxa270 would get me ~80-90 CPU usage , which when playing the same clip on a pxa320 which the exact same OS configuration the CPU usage drops to 30-40%.Yes we are headed for a terrific future.

Oh & it can play Doom 1 too

The problem with gamming on a WM is that the Directx port for the WM is a half hearted attempt at providing this support (though much much better than symbian which basically has nothing even resembling this) , When this improves we shall see some classics being ported to the WM platform.
As far as iPhone, this version as far as I am concerned is a big let down ( at least provide support for multiple video codec playback support).

 

[gxsaurav]

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

You call IM+ or MOrange crap . No wonder you are an i.....ah, it is publically knows what ur now . You never even used them, have u? Oh wait, u like keeping things at default....

Safari in iPhone is trying to be what Opera for Mobile already is. I hope you know that Opera has 2 versions. Opera Mini for JAVA & full Opera with SSR (go research). Safari doesn't even support JAVAscript or JAVA or Flash, for gods sake.....how i..... ah already known, you are when u say no support for JAVA & Flash in iPhone is good thing

The worst applications on Mac OS X are those that are written in JAVA.

Lack of support for JAVA in Mac is the reason it is not used in corporations where most of the enterprice apps are either in .net or JAVA EE.

 

[din]

Apple makes there own version of JAVA (Read: compile) for Mac OS X, they could have done the same for iPhone. But they did not.

Lil confused here. Would you please explain a bit more ? Apple making their own version of Java ? I worked in java 4 ys back and then never used it, so I am not sure what is new in that field. Please enlighten me.

 

[gxsaurav]

Yes Java could have been supported but native applications C,C++,MFC are much more faster and granular than Java

I should remind you again. iPhone has no SDK to develop applications for it. There is one, but only Apple has it inside there labs & it is not out there for the general developers unlike Symbian or Windows CE. JAVA is slower then native, but for phones where the OS is firmware based like Motorola, FLy or Symbian Series 40 or SE, it rox.

Also AMD is making a chip called a Imageon for mobile phones which is supposed to be decent.

Actually ATI made this already in form of ATI Imageon Mobile GPU. Same way they made ATI Xillion GPU for TV/Set Top Box.

The problem with gamming on a WM is that the Directx port for the WM is a half hearted attempt at providing this support

That was just an example which nVidia showed . I guess with DX 10 having a standalone Mobile part, porting DX 10 parts or Directshow to Windows Mobile 7 won't be that hard.

As far as iPhone, this version as far as I am concerned is a big let down ( at least provide support for multiple video codec playback support).

Nope, who would use Apple iTunes store to buy videos then. Apple can't loose a way to extort money. Even real player for mobile would have solved lots of problems

 

[gxsaurav]

Kenshin

Of course he doesn't.

Lil confused here. Would you please explain a bit more ? Apple making their own version of Java ? I worked in java 4 ys back and then never used it, so I am not sure what is new in that field. Please enlighten me.

Oh, I meant Apple making there own version of JAVA runtime. They take the runtime from Sun & compile it again for Mac OS X, adding platform specific codes & enhancement which makes it fast. I find no reason why they could not do this with iPhone.

 

[aryayush]

Because JAVA sucks. Is it so difficult to understand such a simple concept?

 

[din]

Thank you for the clarification GX

Yes, that is right I think. Mac OS X has potmimized JVM to run java apps faster - for desktopns. But Jobs thinks (not sure why) Java is too heavy for phones.

 

[infra_red_dude]

Because JAVA sucks.

i usually refrain making comments like these, but cudn't help it! you haf absolutely NO idea what you are talking about in the mobile scenario for firmware based OS.

 

[din]

Arya, sorry to differ, please read on

Jobs then keyed in on his message: “We want to bring Java back to the desktop in a really big way. I’m here today to personally tell you we are working hard to make Mac the best Java delivery vehicle on the planet. The biggest thing we are doing is we are going to bundle Java 2 SE into every single copy of Mac OS X [the upcoming Macintosh operating system] that we ship later on this year.”

Again, that seemed to be a pretty clear sign that Java was important to Apple and Apple was important to Sun.

So Jobs thinks Java is really good. But for some reason, he think it is heavy weight for phone (may be he will change his mind and java will be back in iPhone in next version)

Now back to the David Pogue blog post. John Markoff asks, “What about all those plugins that live within Safari now, like Flash or like Java or like JavaScript?”

Jobs replies, “Well, JavaScript‚Äôs built into the Phone. Sure.”

Markoff: “And what are you thinking about Flash and Java?”

Jobs: “Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain.”

Markoff: “Flash?”

Jobs: “Well, you might see that.”

O.K., so maybe Flash, definitely JavaScript, and “Java’s not worth building in.” Jobs says it’s heavyweight and nobody uses it anymore.

Source : *www.oreillynet.com/onjava/blog/2007/01/java_to_the_iphone_can_you_hea.html

 

[iMav]

Because JAVA sucks. Is it so difficult to understand such a simple concept?

absolutely gr8 ... ur lack of understandong something means that the thing sucks ... amazing

 

[aryayush]

It is really pathetic that there is no SDK for the iPhone and that sure sucks.

But having support for JAVA instead so that you can have at least some applications is not what I would prefer. It is better to not have anything at all instead of having JAVA and the crappity-crap applications it brings along.

Arya, sorry to differ, please read on

But your article didn't differ. I'm saying JAVA sucks and Steve pretty much said the same thing.

 

[gxsaurav]

But having support for JAVA instead so that you can have at least some applications is not what I would prefer. It is better to not have anything at all instead of having JAVA and the crappity-crap applications it brings along.

Aaaa,,,,,I so wanna kick your a**...ah people Know what I wanna kick

Din, help me here, it is hard for me to resist kicking the salesman . I don't wanna write a big post here giving him an eye opener on why JAVA rox in mobile phones.

Arya, just once question. Do you know what JAVA is? Do you know how different it is compared to .net or Python or C# or are you saying it here just cos your God told u this. Do you know how JAVA brings ease to the OS & applications? Of course u don't.....you are thinking that JAVA for desktop = JAVA for mobile, right? Oh well, you already bought a crap phone )Nokia 6300) & u don't like to install JAVA apps on it, you don't like camera in it, you don't like the music player in it. You don't use it for E-Mail or IM, hey, wat do u use it for? Abe Nokia 1100 lena tha phir to

That ARM CPU from what I read has enough horsepower to use JAVA & also a separate JVM then the OS. If JAVA app crashes, it won't crash the phone.

Fellow members, you can yourself see another pinnacle of stupidity of arya. .....plz give your humble reply to him.

An eye opener for you Arya, more like a note. That iTunes you run can be made compleately in JAVA. Same interface, same plugins, everything.

Now someone plz tell him, the most important benefit of JAVA (Cr*** Pl*****)

@ at everyone

Just as a Sidenote. Microsoft also tried to make a WIndows optimised version of JAVA in the form of Microsoft JAVA virtual machine, for which first Sun didn't mind. But when they saw the popularity of there Sun JVM decreasing cos MS JVM was doing everything faster in WIndows compares to Sun JVM, Sun sued MS & MS had to remove MS JVM in Windows XP SP2 onwards.

 

[din]

@ at everyone

Just as a Sidenote. Microsoft also tried to make a WIndows optimised version of JAVA in the form of Microsoft JAVA virtual machine, for which first Sun didn't mind. But when they saw the popularity of there Sun JVM decreasing cos MS JVM was doing everything faster in WIndows compares to Sun JVM, Sun sued MS & MS had to remove MS JVM in Windows XP SP2 onwards.

Hmm, small correction needed I think ? AFAIK (I may be wrong too), it was not coz "MS JVM was doing everything faster in WIndows"

Sun's trademark license for usage of the Java brand insists that all implementations be "compatible". This resulted in a legal dispute with Microsoft after Sun claimed that the Microsoft implementation did not support the RMI and JNI interfaces and had added platform-specific features of their own. Sun sued and won both damages (some $20 million) and a court order enforcing the terms of the license from Sun. As a result, Microsoft no longer ships Java with Windows, and in recent versions of Windows, Internet Explorer cannot support Java applets without a third-party plugin. However, Sun and others have made available Java run-time systems at no cost for those and other versions of Windows.

Source : *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_(programming_language)

Recently though there's been a lot of unseemly kvetching in the realm of Java. Microsoft recently came out with an implementation of Java 1.1.5 which did not implement certain core parts of the system as well as adding some strange and unlovely extras to the central classes (which means that your applet wouldn't work except in anything but Microsoft Java if you compiled it with Microsoft's java compiler). Sun indeed launched a lawsuit...

Source : *www.herts.ac.uk/ltdu/technology/history_of_java.html

 

[aryayush]

An eye opener for you Arya, more like a note. That iTunes you run can be made compleately in JAVA. Same interface, same plugins, everything.

Oh really, I've used Azureus and Limewire both on Windows and Mac OS X and they suck. I don't know any good JAVA application, at least on Mac OS X.

And iTunes can be done in JAVA?!! Ha! Ha! And it will have the same performance as the Cocoa version? Code it please, I'll be your first (and only) customer.

If JAVA had the potential to make applications like iTunes possible, it wouldn't have been in the sorry state it is today.

 

[eggman]

Arya ji ne kaha Java sux so it sux.
Jo arya ji kahe , woh sahi hai......
Jav sux. What if I can have 100s of application on my phone. Arya ji ne kaha it sux, matlab sux.

 

[din]

May be an offtopic, but worth having a look

itunes clone written in java - *sourceforge.net/projects/jtunes4/

 

[gxsaurav]

Oh really, I've used Azureus and Limewire both on Windows and Mac OS X and they suck. I don't know any good JAVA application, at least on Mac OS X.

Thats cos nobody gives a sh!t about Mac.

And iTunes can be done in JAVA?!!

Yup.

And it will have the same performance as the Cocoa version?

Nope, since you don't know what JAVA is, I won't write here why it can't be fast like native version. Do some research first.

If JAVA had the potential to make applications like iTunes possible, it wouldn't have been in the sorry state it is today.

Sorry State... . On desktop compared to .net, yes. On Mobile, it is the most dominant API out there because of a reason, which u don't know.

are koi bolo yaar isko woh reason ....main kitna bolu isko.