Symbian OS vs Windows v5.0 in Handhelds
- Status
pathiks said:
What is time for development ? There of legions and legions of .Net programmers out there, who can easily adapt to Windows Ce development.The question is not personal preference but time to market.Nothing beats the combination of C/C++ ( native) with C# (managed).
Symbian's days are numbered.
Windows mobile 6 should be called as "Quick fix engineering" for Windows mobile 5.01 to support office 2007.....there is nothing to look forward to in Mobile 6.0.pathiks said:
This will now most probably be called as Mobile 7.0 (aka photon), but the core changes are more to do with the base kernel rather than the SDK.pathiks said:
Actually direct draw is already available in WM 5.0 and also in Direct3d support.The issue is H/W support........things are changing now for example one reference design I am working with has a dedicated h/w acceleration engine coupled to the LCD controller.pathiks said:
Abt the UI part what I mentioned is that, we were stuck with the UI which MS designs for mobile till WM 6.0 ( remember it is only a shell) , which is very clumsy for normal users actually .............now with Photon i beileve that the OEM's can customise the shell.............just a simple C# app........just imagine one shell when you want to be in office...........one UI when you are in home..........possiblites are endless.
Just Imagine , in future is ms ports a stripped down version of the Aero interface of the Vista.............we live in intresting times
.............this is a real possiblity and not a dream since one embedded processor I work with clocks ~1.2Ghz.Exactly what support you want to have ?pathiks said:
Windows Ce has office,exchange sever,media player,ATL,COM,Direct Draw,Direct Show,Outlook,Messenger..........etc,anything you see in a desktop should now be possible in windows ce.Wince pocket pc caters to the high end buisness segment and I don't believe that they find anything missing.
As I was saying .Net CF 2.0 was released only now and earlier wince had a limitaion of 32mb/32process...........Now we have CF2.0 and 2Gb VM per process and with all this the image can be about 40 Mb.Compare this around half a gb for os on the iPhone.
The amount of research ( and money) which goes into MS developing and marketing Windows ce is limitless and as Wince killed palm os in corporate segment , it has the potential to do the same for symbian.
The problem with MS was that they did not want to club to many features into Windows Ce since this will adversely affect the
a)Windows Xp embedded
b)Windows Xp for laptops
The underlying H/W easily supports all the features.Ms now see's the protential (and the threat from iPhone and Symbian) and WM can only go one way and that is Up with the new features.
tech_your_future said:
Yes Symbian is the dominant force purely for the sake that It has more market share but from a programmers perspective it is irrelevant.
When compared with the actual number of 3rd party apps running on Symbian to WM you will notice that WM is the dominant force.
Windows Mobile/Pocket PC/Wince is Developed for and with the Idea of running of 3rd party apps unlike symbian.
Regarding the .Net thing
a)There are some tools to target VS2005 to Non-WM devices but this does NOT use CF2.0, only the IDE is used. (Just like how I use platform builder plugin for VS2005 for my OS development,nothing more)
b)Regarding developeing in .NetCF 2.0 for symbian....I will be better of programming in Java since .Net is by itself consists of three modules (1) class libraries, (2) execution engine, and (3) platform adaptation layer
One can even forget about proting the PAL for Symbian, it is structured around wince and by the time you deal with the client server framework issues of symbian,Does not support static or global variables in dll's in symbian...........etc, well lets forget about support of .Net CF 2.0 for Symbian.....it is a windows only thing.
Lets face it........programming for symbian is difficult what ever way you look at it where as for WM any Windows desktop developer is a potential WM developer.
Sorry for that pathiks.........pathiks said:arey mene wo sab kidhar bola?? Gx ne bola tha ask him..
We are currently doing a Blitzkrieg on the enterprise market..........WM may not be able to capture the consumer market today or 2row or the day after but give us time...........the photon I believe is being designed with broader market appeal ( at-least as per the roadmap form microsoft) and it is only a matter of time before WM dominates the Mobile market ( and the automative,IP tv,Set to boxes.............etc) like what ms did in the desktop.
Last edited:
@aceman,thanx for ur detailed lecture regarding Windows handhelds,I remember my classroom with my prof's lecture (I don't understand either!)
Initially I thought only the devices are complicated,now its clear the programmers are even more!
NOT that I'm against windows,I'm only ignorant at present,I'll learn it slowly,
Symbian is for simple,user friendly people! I'll stick to it now.
Initially I thought only the devices are complicated,now its clear the programmers are even more!
NOT that I'm against windows,I'm only ignorant at present,I'll learn it slowly,
Symbian is for simple,user friendly people! I'll stick to it now.
eminemence
Journeyman
And you think others will not innovate till that time??aceman said:
Keep waiting for your time...
Also with the hardware requirements of WM its not so easy to keep the WM device prices low.What WM device manufacturers have still not learnt is making a good mix of hw components with the right software.
An average person really does not care if its 32MB process space or 4GB, for them the ease of use is of utmost important.Also they expect a mobile phone to look and work like a phone,everything else is just additional and won't matter to 70% of the junta.
--eminemence.
Last edited:
eminemence said:
Sure they will, but the beauty of WinMobile is that anyone can ( well almost anyone) can make a phone, just like Dell,Hp can assemble a PC running on Windows.If you call innovation as just the UI part,well anyone can play that game can't they ?.Crossbow is just a stop gap.Just look at the deepfish browser from the mobile team, This is out even before the much hyped safari for iPhone.
Care to explain what is there in a WM phone requirement which is not in any other Smart phone ? It just says ARM processor,240*120 screen or bigger.......etc which is part of any smart phone.eminemence said:
Excatly which manufacturer you are taking about ? I worked for HTC,Currently with some japan based company and best of my knowledge the phones H/W is quite good.Lets not forget that Palm offers windows mobile with its phones, don't they ? and shall we say palm also is poor ?eminemence said:
eminemence said:
Let me make one point very clear here and that is Windows Mobile phones were targetted towards the enterprise market (aka Blackberry,palm.......etc) and like it or not/belive it or not MS and WinMobile is the leader here and will continue to be.It was never intended (at least with the current prices ) for the market where the iPhone is pitched at.This is where the latest windows mobile ( called as Photon) comes into fray.
As far as S/W goes Windows Mobile (aka till crossbow) were based on Windows Ce 5.0 which was originally for the Dreamcast, yes I personally know many companies who were forced to hire consultants to get around the 32Mb/32Process limitations which limited what you can or cannot do in S/W.
Average person will care when he sees HighDef in in Mobile , woudn't he ? and this is were the new kernel comes.
I unfortunately do not share your optimism for symbian due to the following points
-->Tools.Nothing comes closer to ease of development with .NetCf and Vs when compared with the
C++ and Codewarrior, if you feel Symbians tools are better feel free to correct me.
-->Compatability with desktop environment.Lets face it there is Legions of capable desktop programmers who can
switch to Windows obile development in No time.
-->One unified SDK.Any windows mobile application developer can target a single SDK for any phone, lets
not even start taking of differnt versions of symbian within the same company.
-->Better support of Video capture interfaces.........etc in the new version of Ce 6.0.
It is true Windows Mobile phone do not have the "WOW" factor, well to be fair they had it till the iPhone showed up, but with the amount of $ which everybody is investing it is just a matter of time.
I don't see 720p on a Mobile,I don't see voip in a mobile,I don't see VGA,XVGA in a mobile.....etc.If you are taking about only about applications then I would agree since symbians installed base is more but
if we provide you video playback,High resolution games,Outlook,Ms pocket office in a single phone then windows mobile is clearely the winner here.
Bottom line if Nokia,Sony,Motorola.....etc want to stand a chance they sonner of later would have to abandon symbian for either Linux (trust me Nokia is trying) or windows mobile (highly unlikely).Either way fight will be like Windows Ce Vs Os-X Vs Linux and the winner will be, well lets wait and see -:
.eminemence
Journeyman
That was a huuuuuuuuuuuuge and good reply.
Well here are my "few" words.
Am not sure,but would like to know,does WM provide the same LAF related flexibility.
And yes just some news for you:
*www.redfivelabs.com/default.aspx
As for the features that you claim to make WM a winner are also present in symbian devices.
I am also aware of the initiative within Nokia to move towards Linux to do away with the license fees that they have to pay to Symbian.But frankly speaking Linux ports to Mobile have been not that successful to make an "OpenOS", as Symbian has been able to.
Anyways am tired of typing so much,so will cut it short and may the Best OS win.
--eminemence.
Well here are my "few" words.
HW manufacturers can do the same with Symbian.And Symbian provides just the base OS layer and a basic UI. It's upto device manufacturer's to customise the UI and five a unique LAF to their device range.
Am not sure,but would like to know,does WM provide the same LAF related flexibility.
The screen is something that is seems to limit WM again.No such thing with Symbian,they can and have supported screen sizes right from 128 x 160 to 240 x 320.When I said right mix,I meant a right mix of components that would reduce the total cost of the device.
VS as well as Carbide are supported for Symbian C++ programming.
And yes just some news for you:
*www.redfivelabs.com/default.aspx
Well I haven't seen them doing that 'great' switch in the past 3 to 4 years.
Agree on this one point.
As for the features that you claim to make WM a winner are also present in symbian devices.
I am also aware of the initiative within Nokia to move towards Linux to do away with the license fees that they have to pay to Symbian.But frankly speaking Linux ports to Mobile have been not that successful to make an "OpenOS", as Symbian has been able to.
Anyways am tired of typing so much,so will cut it short and may the Best OS win.
--eminemence.
..:: Free Radical ::..
The Transcendental
Well one thing I do want in Symbian phones is fassssssssssssst processors and graphics acceleration. There are so many good emulators available for WM and crappy ones for Symbian. Symbian being an RTOS allocates greater priority for the system tasks and software can achieve only so much.
The closest they came to a gamer phone was the n-gage. I bought the disaster( (It even died on me after only an year of intensive use)
What I want?
Give me a PSP like gaming device anyday which runs on Linux, has fast processing with good emulator support, a phone, 3G, ebook reading capabilities like WM . I'll buy it the same day.
The closest they came to a gamer phone was the n-gage. I bought the disaster
( (It even died on me after only an year of intensive use)What I want?
Give me a PSP like gaming device anyday which runs on Linux, has fast processing with good emulator support, a phone, 3G, ebook reading capabilities like WM . I'll buy it the same day.
Quiz_Master
* Teh Flirt King *
eminemence said:
Yes thats the point.
Symbian is more of a SmartPhone OS, whereas WM is a OS specifically made for PDAs.
Symbian is good cause it runs on low system requirements.
WM is good cause it has more rich feature set.
But they have totally different target users.
I believe that WM can never replace in SmartPhone front and Symbian can never take place of WM in a PDA or Handheld PC.
eminemence
Journeyman
Well not really,Quiz_Master said:
Symbian is the predecessor of the EPOC OS which was used in Psion devices.
Check the info here : *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion
--eminemence.
Quiz_Master
* Teh Flirt King *
eminemence said:
You mean symbian is the successor of EPOC. I allready knew it.
But symbian in its current form is suitable only for mobiles and low quality calculating and consumer devices (such as e-book readers, e-mail readers, etc.)
- Status