Power Strip/Surge Protector vs UPS

rahul7

Broken In
Hi, i have a seasonic S12ii 620W PSU.
i want to know if frequent (2-3 times a day) power outages damage hardware and if i really need a UPS as i am not really concerned with data loss and only want to protect my hardware or can i use some inexpensive Power Strip/Surge Protector instead.

I can't really afford a UPS now and from what i have read Seasonic PSU's have problem with non-sinewave and only perform with pure sinewave UPS/Inverters and those are even more expensive.:-(

Thanks
 

whitestar_999

Super Moderator
Staff member
power outages as such don't affect pc components much except maybe hard disk.surge protectors are meant to save pc components from sudden large spike in voltage(e.g.some short circuit in mains line) which can fry your pc components.if power in your area is stable(aka no voltage fluctuations) & data loss is not your concern then it should be fine.btw power strip is different from surge protector.basically power strip+surge protection=surge protector.
 
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rahul7

Broken In
CyberPower 1000VA UPS @ 4k /QUOTE]
is it this one and pure sine? cyber power bu1000 UPS - Buy Online at Low Prices on Snapdeal


power outages as such don't affect pc components much except maybe hard disk.surge protectors are meant to save pc components from sudden large spike in voltage(e.g.some short circuit in mains line) which can fry your pc components.if power in your area is stable(aka no voltage fluctuations) & data loss is not your concern then it should be fine.btw power strip is different from surge protector.basically power strip+surge protection=surge protector.

thanks for the clarification
so power outages can only affect hard disk but voltage spike can damage all components (CPU,GPU)?

so will a surge protector prevent that damage and if yes then can u plz suggest a good one.
will the voltage spike be regulated by voltage stabalizer used for fridge/AC's etc?
 

whitestar_999

Super Moderator
Staff member
UPS Backup | Power Supply | Emergency Power Systems ? CyberPower Systems, Inc.
On Battery Output Voltage Simulated Sine Wave at 220Vac +/-5%
you will not find pure sine wave ups/inverter at 4-5k price.belkin make good surge protector.voltage stabilizer for fridge/ac is not suitable for pc.working of active pfc psu with non pure sinewave ups depends on a lot of factors & in most of the cases it will work if ups has large enough power capacity.skipping the details i think an 1100VA APC UPS should be able to handle your seasonic 620w psu correctly(assuming no other equipment like monitor,speaker etc connected to ups).
 
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rahul7

Broken In
UPS Backup | Power Supply | Emergency Power Systems ? CyberPower Systems, Inc.

you will not find pure sine wave ups/inverter at 4-5k price.belkin make good surge protector.voltage stabilizer for fridge/ac is not suitable for pc.working of active pfc psu with non pure sinewave ups depends on a lot of factors & in most of the cases it will work if ups has large enough power capacity.skipping the details i think an 1100VA APC UPS should be able to handle your seasonic 620w psu correctly(assuming no other equipment like monitor,speaker etc connected to ups).

thanks
the 1100 VA UPS is beyond my budget and in this thread the OP is already facing problems with 520 watt s12ii on the same ups http://www.digit.in/forum/power-sup...45-seasonic-s12ii-520w-no-backup-apc-ups.html

i checked for belkin surge protectors but they vary greatly in cost and specs. can u tell me which one should i get or the specs (how many joules, etc)?
 

whitestar_999

Super Moderator
Staff member
as it was mentioned in that thread the psu did work correctly for about 6 months with that ups so most likely the active pfc circuit of psu got damaged.since data protection is not your concern you can skip the ups.as for surge protector specs it all depends on how much security you want.basic model with 200joule & 6500amp should be enough for the usual spikes but if lightening strikes the electric pole near your home then no commonly available surge protector will help.
9 things you should know about surge protectors - CNET
 

kARTechnology

Sony " VA" "IO"
I would say that than lighting strikes, neutral cut conditions are common in India and can instantly boost/ bring the voltage to 440v in your normal 230v line in a 3 phase setup, and damage every appliance it passes through.

for such conditions, than a surge protector, an Digital inverter (With pure sine wave + which does a "synchronization" where the power was cut) can immediately counter-effect the change(Have experienced many times), even when the PC is running while the neutral at the transformer / apartment block gets cut.

The inverter goes to battery mode, though the main netural varying 440v(floats between 300-450v, depends on the load on the 3 individual phases) is coming, I assume that it might have counter effect like as if the pc sees a healthy 220v inverter output & main neutral(which floats at varying dangerous voltages), by varying the phase of the waveform
 
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rahul7

Broken In
as it was mentioned in that thread the psu did work correctly for about 6 months with that ups so most likely the active pfc circuit of psu got damaged.since data protection is not your concern you can skip the ups.as for surge protector specs it all depends on how much security you want.basic model with 200joule & 6500amp should be enough for the usual spikes but if lightening strikes the electric pole near your home then no commonly available surge protector will help.
9 things you should know about surge protectors - CNET

thnx but still i cant afford APC 1100 VA its around 6k n data loss isn't an issue so like u said i'll skip the UPS
for surge protector are these belkin one's good
Belkin 4 Socket Surge Protector (F9E400zb) Price in India - Buy Belkin 4 Socket Surge Protector (F9E400zb) online at Flipkart.com - 200joule & 6500amp

Belkin 6 Socket Surge Protector (F9E600zb) Price in India - Buy Belkin 6 Socket Surge Protector (F9E600zb) online at Flipkart.com - 420 j n 13000 amp.
ther's no max wattage mentioned though

Zebronics ZEB-4PS (plus) 4 Strip Surge Protector Price in India - Buy Zebronics ZEB-4PS (plus) 4 Strip Surge Protector online at Flipkart.com

- - - Updated - - -

I would say that than lighting strikes, neutral cut conditions are common in India and can instantly boost/ bring the voltage to 440v in your normal 230v line in a 3 phase setup, and damage every appliance it passes through.

for such conditions, than a surge protector, an Digital inverter (With pure sine wave + which does a "synchronization" where the power was cut) can immediately counter-effect the change(Have experienced many times), even when the PC is running while the neutral at the transformer / apartment block gets cut.

The inverter goes to battery mode, though the main netural varying 440v(floats between 300-450v, depends on the load on the 3 individual phases) is coming, I assume that it might have counter effect like as if the pc sees a healthy 220v inverter output & main neutral(which floats at varying dangerous voltages), by varying the phase of the waveform

cant afford invertor...thnx anyways
 

westom

Banned
thnx but still i cant afford APC 1100 VA its around 6k n data loss isn't an issue so like u said i'll skip the UPS
for surge protector are these belkin one's good
Long before solving a problem, first it must be identified. A surge is a high voltage. You described a power loss - a near zero or zero voltage. Obviously there is no relationship between both anomalies. Anyone who did not note that up front should have all his advise suspect or ignored.

A voltage drop (near zero voltage) does not damage any electronics. In fact, voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Even that is perfectly good voltage for any electronics. If voltage drops lower, then electronics simply power off.

Low voltage is a threat to unsaved data. That is what a UPS is for - temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.

The Belkin and other adjacent magic boxes claim to protect from voltage anomalies that are already made irrelevant by robust protection already inside all appliances. Your concern is a rare transient - maybe once every seven years - that will easily blow through that Belkin (or UPS). This potentially destructive anomaly must be averted where all utility wires enter the building with (and this must have most of your attention) a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground. Only then does this completely different device (also called a protector) make potentially destructive transients irrelevant.

This 'whole house' solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. How much did consumers (educated by advertising) recommend spending on a UPS or Belkin?

Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does that near zero protector claim to absorb? 600? Appreciate why informed consumers spend tens of times less money on the proven 'whole house' protector. So that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. Not even damage a protector.

All those other near zero solutions also need to be protected by the one 'whole house' solution. It is the only solution found even 100 years ago so that surges (including direct lightning strikes) cause no damage. And it is rarely known to so many consumers only educated by advertising; not by well proven science.
 

whitestar_999

Super Moderator
Staff member
i have read about this in your earlier posts too & it is quite good as you say but the problem is here in India many houses are not exactly the independent unit type like those in USA & getting such electricity work done will require getting permission from a lot of people.even after all that trouble it is also hard to find a qualified electrician to do this.also i searched a bit & found these articles which suggest it is not as foolproof as claimed:
The Myth of Whole-House Surge Protection - Article from CE Pro
a service entrance surge protector can provide some protection from the 20 percent of surges originating outside a house, but not the 80 percent of surges which originate within a house

Surge Protection Safety | Home Surge Protection | HouseLogic
For the most sensitive electronics, such as computers and home entertainment systems, a second layer of protection is recommended in the form of point-of-use SPDs.
No surge-protection device is foolproof; if your house takes a direct hit from lightning, only luck and good karma will keep anything plugged into a power source from being obliterated.
 

westom

Banned
also i searched a bit & found these articles which suggest it is not as foolproof as claimed:
[STRIKE]The technically naïve are obvious once we include numbers he forgot to include. His entire claim is subjective - which by itself implies urban myth. Always reject subjective claims as bogus or scams.

Surges created inside a house are how many volts? Single digit. Also called noise. An adjacent and plug-in protector probably has a let-through voltage of 500 volts. That means it does nothing until a transient well exceeds 500 volts. What does it do for appliance generated noise that is typically less than 10 volts? Why did the author forget to include those numbers? Most are that easily manipulated by propaganda. The protector does nothing but rape your pocketbook.

Now, if appliances are creating potentially destructive transients, then the first destroyed appliance is itself. After all, the transient is largest at an appliance that creates it. How often every day do you replaced self destructed appliances?

Third, if appliances were generating those destructive transients, then you are replacing appliances, CFL bulbs, etc hourly. More numbers that expose that article as something akin to a lie. Why did you not ask these damning questions? Why are you not replacing destroyed appliances hourly? Because all appliances already contain protector more robust than those near zero power strips provided.

Nobody said anything about rewiring a building. If your country needs permissions and specially trained experts to upgrade earth ground wires, then your country and its people have no business competing in free markets. You have hyped into complication what should be possible even by informed layman. Obtaining an informed workman should require nothing more than a phone call. After all, do you need government permission to fix broken windows? If you cannot properly earth a 'whole house' protector, then your government is the only reason for surge damage. Attack the problem. That would also example house fires due to plug-in protectors that do not have the necessary protection and that only claim near zero protection.

According to your author, those protectors must be replaced hourly due to damage created by 80% of the spikes created inside the house - using their numbers.

If using plug-in protectors, appliance damage is made easier. If using that completely irresponsible author as a legitimate source, then a serious credibility problem exists. That author lies by hyping single digit volt transients as if thousands of volts. Transients generated inside any house are made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance including the appliance that generates that tiny noise. That author hyped fear by making claims without specification numbers. Making him and his editor irresponsible.

Show me a household appliance that generates 1000 volt spikes. What does it (and near zero 400 joules protectors that can cause house fires) do when destructive transients (hundreds of thousands of joules) occur? We are now discussing damning numbers - not some author's subjective and wild speculations.[/STRIKE]
 
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samthechamp

Broken In
I would say that than lighting strikes, neutral cut conditions are common in India and can instantly boost/ bring the voltage to 440v in your normal 230v line in a 3 phase setup, and damage every appliance it passes through.

for such conditions, than a surge protector, an Digital inverter (With pure sine wave + which does a "synchronization" where the power was cut) can immediately counter-effect the change(Have experienced many times), even when the PC is running while the neutral at the transformer / apartment block gets cut.

The inverter goes to battery mode, though the main netural varying 440v(floats between 300-450v, depends on the load on the 3 individual phases) is coming, I assume that it might have counter effect like as if the pc sees a healthy 220v inverter output & main neutral(which floats at varying dangerous voltages), by varying the phase of the waveform

Thanks for the info dude.Now if you can please just look into my matter.Its a request.I couldn't find answers anywhere.

I have a bpe 600va UPS. Which claims to protect from surges , but a couple weeks ago some fault happened in my society or building or whatever , I was not at home but when I came I saw that the MCB had tripped , as soon as I checked my PC it wasn't powering on , turns out my Motherboard , speakers and tablet were completely fried.thank god 2 of them were in warranty.When I called the electrician he said that the earthing and all was fine so most probably some wires had crossed somewhere and caused a voltage of 440v which you described.Can you please elaborate what setup exactly do I need to prevent this in future?do I just need a better UPS like APC ?do I need an inverter like luminous zelio or which one?

Thanks v much.
 

bssunilreddy

Chosen of the Omnissiah
Buy APC 1100VA UPS @ 5.5k

This UPS has Surge Protector Sockets which will surely protect your components in the future.

I have APC 1000VS UPS @ 7.5k
 

whitestar_999

Super Moderator
Staff member
[MENTION=284891]samthechamp[/MENTION], the answer to your query is in the quoted text in your post itself.
for such conditions, than a surge protector, an Digital inverter (With pure sine wave + which does a "synchronization" where the power was cut) can immediately counter-effect the change(Have experienced many times), even when the PC is running while the neutral at the transformer / apartment block gets cut.
 
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