High End PC (Intel Haswell Based) Please Read

[Extreme Gamer]

Extrme Gamer, sorry for the misleading information I have posted regarding BIOS. I was misinformed regarding that.



This is a wrong information. In my 1st post, I have asked you check the Hardocp review of the three cards, 770 Lightning, 680 Lightning and Gigabyte HD 7970 OC. Here is the link: HARDOCP - MSI GeForce GTX 770 Lightning - MSI N770 Lightning Overclocking Review

Even with voltage tweak, they were not able to overclock a GTX 770 over 1300 MHz. And mind it, it is a MSI Lightning version, not a stock one. And please read the performance summary or conclusion page properly. I am quoting from them:-


I guess I am putting the facts here, not hearsay

Did I ever say that the GTX 770 can cross 1300Mhz? Did I? I said I have yet to see a 7970 that can cross 1300Mhz in safe voltages. Besides, you can't do a clock for clock comparison between two GPU architectures to give brownie points to AMD.

Also, did you know that HardOCP never does apples to apples comparisons between GPUs? The test with highest playable settings for each card. That means the compared framerates are nothing but horseshit.

In this review they do seem to be using equal settings, but you are forgetting that these are tests in XHD (1600p/1440p), where the 7970 is advantaged by memory. In this configuration, we're giving him a 1080p (or was it 1200p?) monitor.

 

[Ironman]

Bro, GTX 770 is a much better deal than HD 7970, if attainable at ~30k.

It's not a rehashed GTX 680 like you posted elsewhere. The PCB is the same design, but the components on it have been tweaked. The RAM is a much higher quality set, and the GPUs are a better revision (comparable to steppings for Intel CPUs).

I would avoid Ivy bridge if I were you.

I think you should just hold on for a couple of months and increase budget then if possible (otherwise we'll work it out within this one later).

Point Taken about Ivy Bridge (scrapping the idea)

What about AMD 9000 GPU Series should i wait for it (Supposed release in October) ?

So you are advising me to wait for the new GPU (series)?? Right ??
Increase Budget by how much ? (Approximately)

Actually why you shouldn't go with Ivy Bridge or any Processor which has already reached EOL is because say after 2 and half year, you got a faulty motherboard and it will be very difficult to get a new one on that time and might result to change both CPU and motherboard.

Extreme Gamer, GTX 770 does have a better PCB design and higher memory speed but it is nothing but a revised GTX 680 with some tweak. I think you know there is a official BIOS update released by nVidia for GTX 680 which will turn your GTX 680 to operate at GTX 770's Core clock speed and and memory speed.
For testing that, Hardocp has performed a test, consisting of GTX 770, a custom PCB based GTX 680, MSI 680 Lightning for replocating the 770 behavior and a HD 7970 GHz edition with all of them are overcloked at their maximum level. In the test, they have observed than when running at same speed, GTX 680 and GTX 770 perform very similarly, with 770 having 2 to 3% lead in some games. HD 7970 at 1200 MHz+ speed sometimes exceeded GTX 770 in high memory bandwidth demanding games.
And I didn't find GTX 770 anywhere at 30K, it is 32K in most of the sites. Could you confirm 30K availability in Kolkata shops? Otherwise at 28.5K, HD 7970 is a very good choice if OP can overclock it properly. But if he can arrange an GTX 770 at 30K price point then he can easily opt for that.

OK i will inquire the local market for prices of 7970 & 770 and post later on !

Point noted about EOL products !

Did I ever say that the GTX 770 can cross 1300Mhz? Did I? I said I have yet to see a 7970 that can cross 1300Mhz in safe voltages. Besides, you can't do a clock for clock comparison between two GPU architectures to give brownie points to AMD.

Also, did you know that HardOCP never does apples to apples comparisons between GPUs? The test with highest playable settings for each card. That means the compared framerates are nothing but horseshit.

In this review they do seem to be using equal settings, but you are forgetting that these are tests in XHD (1600p/1440p), where the 7970 is advantaged by memory. In this configuration, we're giving him a 1080p (or was it 1200p?) monitor.

It was a 1080p Monitor !

@Cilus & ExtremeGamer
Its a very Inspiring Discussion but slowly its turning into a argument ........... please ......... let it rest for a while
i am not going to overclock like crazy that will break my card ............ i will overclock but within safe limits .

Please advice should i wait for 9000 series or go for a 7970 or 7950 now
I can do without GPU for a FEW Months.(if it releases in Oct - Nov 2013)

 

[Extreme Gamer]

Point Taken about Ivy Bridge (scrapping the idea)

What about AMD 9000 GPU Series should i wait for it (Supposed release in October) ?

So you are advising me to wait for the new GPU (series)?? Right ??
Increase Budget by how much ? (Approximately)



OK i will inquire the local market for prices of 7970 & 770 and post later on !

Point noted about EOL products !




It was a 1080p Monitor !

@Cilus & ExtremeGamer
Its a very Inspiring Discussion but slowly its turning into a argument ........... please ......... let it rest for a while
i am not going to overclock like crazy that will break my card ............ i will overclock but within safe limits .

Please advice should i wait for 9000 series or go for a 7970 or 7950 now
I can do without GPU for a FEW Months.(if it releases in Oct - Nov 2013)

Don't get a 7970 if you can afford the 770. Period. Best is to wait for Volcanic Islands.

There is no official twaeak from Nvidia. Don't believe him about the rehashing either.

If you wait, will you be able to extend your budget by ~10k by then? As in, right now you would spend ~75-80k, and then 30-35k on GPU after AMD release.

 

[vickybat]

Did I ever say that the GTX 770 can cross 1300Mhz? Did I? I said I have yet to see a 7970 that can cross 1300Mhz in safe voltages. Besides, you can't do a clock for clock comparison between two GPU architectures to give brownie points to AMD.

Also, did you know that HardOCP never does apples to apples comparisons between GPUs? The test with highest playable settings for each card. That means the compared framerates are nothing but horseshit.

In this review they do seem to be using equal settings, but you are forgetting that these are tests in XHD (1600p/1440p), where the 7970 is advantaged by memory. In this configuration, we're giving him a 1080p (or was it 1200p?) monitor.

Whatever you say, 7970 ghz edition is almost equal with a 770 in maximum titles. PERIOD!

From a US price perspective, 770 makes sense as its cheaper than the 7970 ghz edition. But in India, its a different scenario altogether and the pricing is reversed.
The 7970 is cheaper here.

If hardocp was horseshit ( in reality it wasn't), check the following:

Single-Card Results: Battlefield 3 - The GeForce GTX 770 Review: Calling In A Hit On Radeon HD 7970?

Tell me, is it wise to pay 3.5k extra? 7970 are available within 27k at some places. That makes it a killer budget deal.
The same performance will be reflected in 1080p too.

And this is coming from an Nvidia fanboy.

@OP

Get a custom 7970 like Sapphire vapor-x. Its as good as a 770 from a performance point of view.

Get the cheaper card and add the saved amount on other components.

 

[Cilus]

There is no official twaeak from Nvidia. Don't believe him about the rehashing either.

Extreme Gamer, what is the problem with you? Try to behave a little. I already said that I was misinformed about the BIOS release and also said sorry for my mistake. What is that with that don't believe him thing? Everybody here are perfectly aware that 770 is just a refreshment of GTX 680 with better PCB design and slightly higher memory clock speed. Now you can think it as a new card or not, it is entirely your opinion and what I think it is my opinion. Be very much careful about the word you choose here while discussing and don't try to play smart
Consider this is a warning to you, next time I am gonna take strict action and not gonna mind whatever you think about Moderators' abuse of power.

 

[Extreme Gamer]

Extreme Gamer, what is the problem with you? Try to behave a little. I already said that I was misinformed about the BIOS release and also said sorry for my mistake. What is that with that don't believe him thing? Everybody here are perfectly aware that 770 is just a refreshment of GTX 680 with better PCB design and slightly higher memory clock speed. Now you can think it as a new card or not, it is entirely your opinion and what I think it is my opinion. Be very much careful about the word you choose here while discussing and don't try to play smart
Consider this is a warning to you, next time I am gonna take strict action and not gonna mind whatever you think about Moderators' abuse of power.

I missed your apology. My bad.

But like it or not, I will stick to my guns about the rehashing bit.

Whatever you say, 7970 ghz edition is almost equal with a 770 in maximum titles. PERIOD!

From a US price perspective, 770 makes sense as its cheaper than the 7970 ghz edition. But in India, its a different scenario altogether and the pricing is reversed.
The 7970 is cheaper here.

If hardocp was horseshit ( in reality it wasn't), check the following:

Single-Card Results: Battlefield 3 - The GeForce GTX 770 Review: Calling In A Hit On Radeon HD 7970?

Tell me, is it wise to pay 3.5k extra? 7970 are available within 27k at some places. That makes it a killer budget deal.
The same performance will be reflected in 1080p too.

And this is coming from an Nvidia fanboy.

@OP

Get a custom 7970 like Sapphire vapor-x. Its as good as a 770 from a performance point of view.

Get the cheaper card and add the saved amount on other components.

Yes, I will say that it is worth it to get the GTX 770. I was never speaking from a US point of view, so I don't know what made you say that.

About hardOCP, reread what I stated earlier and stop misquoting me. [before you get angry, I'm not trying to be rude]

And I'm someone who sits on the fence, I love my HD 7970. But right now I would look at the GTX 770.

Yet again an XHD comparison has been posted. Like I said, please show me that 1080/1200p performance has negligible difference in vs the HD 7970 Ghz.

Here are 1200p numbers (look at all benches). As you can see, the cost is justified.

 

[Cilus]

How it is justified? At 1080P resolution In Far Cry 3, 770 provides 4 FPS higher, in Bioshock Infinite, it provides a 12 FPS advantage, but that is common with all the nVidia cards, not specific to GTX 770, in MoW, Warfighter, 770 and 7970 performed same. The performance difference never is average of 5 to 6 FPS at max in maximum cases and in some games like Sleeping Dogs, 7970 GE performed better. SO, for that amount of performance improvement, I don't think 4K price is justified.

And what you think about 770 is entirely your opinion. So don't use wrong words like you used to enforce your opinion here.

 

[Extreme Gamer]

How it is justified? At 1080P resolution In Far Cry 3, 770 provides 4 FPS higher, in Bioshock Infinite, it provides a 12 FPS advantage, but that is common with all the nVidia cards, not specific to GTX 770, in MoW, Warfighter, 770 and 7970 performed same. The performance difference never is average of 5 to 6 FPS at max in maximum cases and in some games like Sleeping Dogs, 7970 GE performed better. SO, for that amount of performance improvement, I don't think 4K price is justified.

And what you think about 770 is entirely your opinion. So don't use wrong words like you used to enforce your opinion here.

And what you think of the 7970 Ghz is entirely your opinion. Don't force it here. My words were not at all offensive or derogatory.

Now, let us look at the facts:

HD 7970 costs Rs. 28.5k
GTX 770 costs Rs. 32k

Therefore, if the GTX 770 is taken as baseline, the HD 7970 costs 0.89 times the GTX 770 amount, or 89% of the GTX 770.

Now,

Far Cry 3: HD 7970 56 FPS GTX 770 60 FPS, or 93% performance
Bioshock Infinte: HD 7970 68 FPS GTX 770 81 FPS, or 83% performance
MOH-WF: HD 7970 65 FPS GTX 770 65 FPS, or 100% performance
Tomb Raider: HD 7970 86 FPS GTX 770 91 FPS, or 94% performance
Sleeping Dogs: HD 7970 83 FPS GTX 770 84 FPS, or 98% performance
Metro 2034: HD 7970 47 FPS GTX 770 50 FPS, or 94% performance
Anno 2070: HD 7970 90 FPS GTX 770 95 FPS, or >94% performance
Hitman 5: HD 7970 71 FPS GTX 770 61 FPS, or >116% performance
Battlefield 3: HD 7970 64 FPS GTX 770 68 FPS, or 94% performance
Crysis 3: HD 7970 44 FPS GTX 770 49 FPS, or 89% performance

As you can see, barring Hitman, the GTX 770 performs between 2 and 17% faster than the HD 7970 for an 11% difference in cost. While it isn't even cost-performance scaling, add to it the much lower power draw and quieter design. The GTX 770 wins.

BTW, you yet again misrepresented the fact that in Sleeping Dogs, the GTX 770 performs worse than the HD 7970. My list would have you proven otherwise. Maybe it was a misread at your end.

While the GTX 770 costs 3.5k more than the HD 7970, you're (yet again) forgetting that he said he has a 1 lakh budget that can be extended. I'm asking him to extend it by 2k (taking your 98k FX-8350 setup). 2k isn't small in itself, but in a 1 lakh budget it is a miniscule amount.

Cilus, I'm requesting you, do not argue any further with me about this.

 

[vickybat]

Yes, I will say that it is worth it to get the GTX 770. I was never speaking from a US point of view, so I don't know what made you say that.

Who said you were speaking from a US point of view directly? Your points implied the same i.e favoring 770 instead of 7970 even though the former is priced higher here unlike US.
770 is recommended there coz of its price/performance ratio. Toms hardware too recommends 770. But in India, its simply priced surprisingly high. Needs to fall down a couple of notches for a recommendation instead of 7970 ghz.

About hardOCP, reread what I stated earlier and stop misquoting me. [before you get angry, I'm not trying to be rude]

Nobody is misquoting you. You are the one who called it horseshit. You need to mind that tone in your posts.

And I'm someone who sits on the fence, I love my HD 7970. But right now I would look at the GTX 770.

Yet again an XHD comparison has been posted. Like I said, please show me that 1080/1200p performance has negligible difference in vs the HD 7970 Ghz.

Sure why not :

Spoiler

*i.imgur.com/LVs1Oct.gif

I don't think a 4% difference for 4k more is justified. Both offers almost same performance.

About your guru3d benchmarks analogy, you forgot to round things:

This would be the correct list:

Far Cry 3: HD 7970 56 FPS GTX 770 60 FPS, or 93% performance
Bioshock Infinte: HD 7970 68 FPS GTX 770 81 FPS, or 84% performance
MOH-WF: HD 7970 65 FPS GTX 770 65 FPS, or 100% performance
Tomb Raider: HD 7970 86 FPS GTX 770 91 FPS, or 95% performance
Sleeping Dogs: HD 7970 83 FPS GTX 770 84 FPS, or 99% performance
Metro 2034: HD 7970 47 FPS GTX 770 50 FPS, or 94% performance
Anno 2070: HD 7970 90 FPS GTX 770 95 FPS, or 95% performance
Hitman 5: HD 7970 71 FPS GTX 770 61 FPS, or 116% performance
Battlefield 3: HD 7970 64 FPS GTX 770 68 FPS, or 94% performance
Crysis 3: HD 7970 44 FPS GTX 770 49 FPS, or 90% performance

In integer division, anything greater than .5 is rounded to the next nearest integer. That raises almost all games, barring a few by 1 %.

Taking the average i.e (93 +84 +100 +95 +99+94+95+116+94+90) / 10 brings it to 96% ( similar to the analogy made by techpowerup).

So is a 4% performance on average justifies 4k??

I think 7970 Ghz is perfectly recommended here.

 

[Extreme Gamer]

Who said you were speaking from a US point of view directly? Your points implied the same i.e favoring 770 instead of 7970 even though the former is priced higher here unlike US.
770 is recommended there coz of its price/performance ratio. Toms hardware too recommends 770. But in India, its simply priced surprisingly high. Needs to fall down a couple of notches for a recommendation instead of 7970 ghz.

Choose A Video Card - PCPartPicker

I can see 3 HD 7970 Ghz editions cheaper than the GTX 770.

Nobody is misquoting you. You are the one who called it horseshit. You need to mind that tone in your posts.

And you found it convenient to skip very next statement?

Sure why not :

Spoiler

*i.imgur.com/LVs1Oct.gif

I don't think a 4% difference for 4k more is justified. Both offers almost same performance.

About your guru3d benchmarks analogy, you forgot to round things:

This would be the correct list:

Far Cry 3: HD 7970 56 FPS GTX 770 60 FPS, or 93% performance
Bioshock Infinte: HD 7970 68 FPS GTX 770 81 FPS, or 84% performance
MOH-WF: HD 7970 65 FPS GTX 770 65 FPS, or 100% performance
Tomb Raider: HD 7970 86 FPS GTX 770 91 FPS, or 95% performance
Sleeping Dogs: HD 7970 83 FPS GTX 770 84 FPS, or 99% performance
Metro 2034: HD 7970 47 FPS GTX 770 50 FPS, or 94% performance
Anno 2070: HD 7970 90 FPS GTX 770 95 FPS, or 95% performance
Hitman 5: HD 7970 71 FPS GTX 770 61 FPS, or 116% performance
Battlefield 3: HD 7970 64 FPS GTX 770 68 FPS, or 94% performance
Crysis 3: HD 7970 44 FPS GTX 770 49 FPS, or 90% performance

In integer division, anything greater than .5 is rounded to the next nearest integer. That raises almost all games, barring a few by 1 %.

Taking the average i.e (93 +84 +100 +95 +99+94+95+116+94+90) / 10 brings it to 96% ( similar to the analogy made by techpowerup).

So is a 4% performance on average justifies 4k??

I think 7970 Ghz is perfectly recommended here.

I didn't round any of the numbers, I dropped them, like I always do, whether Nvidia or AMD. If I had taken Nvidia as baseline, I would have done the same. That is why I made even the cost difference appear greater by a few decimal points-. The decimal percentage is not a quantifiable difference.

Also, the mean is a flawed method to average out the numbers to get an average performance difference. The inter-quartile range is the right way in GPU-GPU comparisons, because all the variables in the mean can skew the difference by a large margin. Hence, barring Hitman Aboslution, the 2% to 17% difference (I'm not averse to posting lower than average results).

And then again, you forgot the lower power draw, quiter cooling etc. The 11% cost difference is likely going to be covered more or less in electricity bills because the power draw difference is noticeable.

Performance isn't everything, you know.

And like I said before, the best decision for the OP would be to wait for Volcanic islands.

 

[Cilus]

Lets stop the 7870 GE vs GTX 770 here. If OP can accommodate a 770 in his budget, he can get it. But if he goes for Haswell based i7 4770, his cost will be significantly higher than my 98K suggestion of an AMD configuration. Just for Processor, he has to spend 11K extra and for good motherboard, around 5K extra. So let him decide what CPU and GPU he wants.
EG, whatever, I think of GTX 770 or HD 7970 GE, I never tried to force it off and tried to put some points and you did the same thing. But I was highly disappointed with your choice of word like Don't believe him. It simply implies that I was lying here to put my point.

 

[Ironman]

Oh MY GOD NOT AGAIN !!

@ExtremeGamer
@Cilus
@VickyBat

I am sure you all are correct and each card is good in its own way please stop arguing and fighting over miniscule/minute information floating over the internet. please i beg you

I decided to wait for the Volcanic Islands (for 2 or 3 months and buy the rest now )
i think i can increase the budget another 5 k or 8 k

Another thing i saw is the electricity consumption .
as i saw in the reviews . amd CPU sucks much more electricity than Intel

and my pc runs 18+ hours a day

 

[Extreme Gamer]

Oh MY GOD NOT AGAIN !!

@ExtremeGamer
@Cilus
@VickyBat

I am sure you all are correct and each card is good in its own way please stop arguing and fighting over miniscule/minute information floating over the internet. please i beg you

I decided to wait for the Volcanic Islands (for 2 or 3 months and buy the rest now )
i think i can increase the budget another 5 k or 8 k

Another thing i saw is the electricity consumption .
as i saw in the reviews . amd CPU sucks much more electricity than Intel

and my pc runs 18+ hours a day

Which brings me back to my question that got hidden because of the argument: if you wait for Volcanic islands, will you be able to spend ~110k total?

Because then now getting a 4770k would be a good choice for your workstation-based tasks and then later you could see how all the GPUs stack up and decide for yourself

 

[vickybat]

Oh MY GOD NOT AGAIN !!

@ExtremeGamer
@Cilus
@VickyBat

I am sure you all are correct and each card is good in its own way please stop arguing and fighting over miniscule/minute information floating over the internet. please i beg you

I decided to wait for the Volcanic Islands (for 2 or 3 months and buy the rest now )
i think i can increase the budget another 5 k or 8 k

Another thing i saw is the electricity consumption .
as i saw in the reviews . amd CPU sucks much more electricity than Intel

and my pc runs 18+ hours a day

Don't worry mate. We were just puttings facts in the proper place. One thing great of 770 is its efficiency.
Yes, it truly is efficient but just 30-35 watts more. Amd gpu's relatively has higher power consumption compared to kepler. But they are pretty good in general.

Coming to cpu, AMD does have much higher power consumption here. For 18+ hrs a day, intel cpu's are recommended for you. If you can pair i7 4770k + 770, then no one is going to sway you away from that decision. Your budget made us recommend the 7970 ghz.

You can also wait for AMD's new gpu's but do note that they are not volcanic islands but revamped sea islands. Volcanic islands are delayed till next year and they'll compete with Nvidia's Maxwell.

 

[Extreme Gamer]

OP, are you averse to tiny builds?

 

[Ironman]

OP, are you averse to tiny builds?

No , its just that it has been too many years without upgrading !
(Still Use a P4)
So i took this Step

(I hope i understand the meaning of your sentence) but still just to be clear
Speaking of Tiny Builds ?
What do you mean by Tiny Builds exactly

Don't worry mate. We were just puttings facts in the proper place. One thing great of 770 is its efficiency.
Yes, it truly is efficient but just 30-35 watts more. Amd gpu's relatively has higher power consumption compared to kepler. But they are pretty good in general.

Coming to cpu, AMD does have much higher power consumption here. For 18+ hrs a day, intel cpu's are recommended for you. If you can pair i7 4770k + 770, then no one is going to sway you away from that decision. Your budget made us recommend the 7970 ghz.

Actually i am planning bto use a ASUS VG23AH (IPS LED Passive 3D overclockable to 72Hz) Monitor
as Nvidia does not support Passive 3D so i thought going with AMD will be better

Now that you told me , i am looking into 770 now and another Monitor Compatible with it ......... Thanks

You can also wait for AMD's new gpu's but do note that they are not volcanic islands but revamped sea islands. Volcanic islands are delayed till next year and they'll compete with Nvidia's Maxwell.

So you are telling me its the same architecture 28nm (as Seas Islands) not 20nm (Volcanic Islands).
and Next Year ............
The GPU Launching this october is just a Beffed up Copy !!??

 

[Cilus]

nVidia does support passive 3D.

 

[Extreme Gamer]

No , its just that it has been too many years without upgrading !
(Still Use a P4)
So i took this Step

(I hope i understand the meaning of your sentence) but still just to be clear
Speaking of Tiny Builds ?
What do you mean by Tiny Builds exactly

Micro-ATX, miniITX. Smaller form factor systems can often result in savings while packing the same punch as mid and full towers

 

[Ironman]

nVidia does support passive 3D.

Actually I have browsed many forums
most says that only those monitors are supported which are "Optimized for Geeforce Certified " and its not as i read in ASUS and nVidia
So i am not Sure about the fact !

Micro-ATX, miniITX. Smaller form factor systems can often result in savings while packing the same punch as mid and full towers

Ok ,....... but does it not increase temperature & Heat ??

 

[Extreme Gamer]

Actually I have browsed many forums
most says that only those monitors are supported which are "Optimized for Geeforce Certified " and its not as i read in ASUS and nVidia
So i am not Sure about the fact !



Ok ,....... but does it not increase temperature & Heat ??

Depends on the configuration. SLI/CFX on microATX can be an oven for the GPU subsection, requiring a good case, and mini-ITX usually doesn't because of the choice of components.

In the end, the choice of your case is a crucial decider on temperature and heat. As long as your CPU does not cross 85C and your GPU 95C in stock settings, your system will last you it's expected lifetime (~10 years if you treat the parts right), which is much longer than it's practical lifetime.

Remind me of your needs and budget in a nutshell, it has been a while since I saw this thread (or rather you responded).

IMO, since you want to do some photoshop work, 3D rendering etc, I would suggest skipping 3D gaming for a better quality panel.