EU could force Microsoft to bundle Firefox/Opera/Safari with Windows

[gopi_vbboy]

But Windows live will be bundled search engine for firefox :d

 

[Coool]

opera with windows = coool

 

[gxsaurav]

^ The problem IMO is not only restricted to which browser people are using but also of standards. Unfortunately till now, IE has never been a standards following browser and has set its own "standards". As a result web developers code focusing on IE alone and leave other browsers unattended.

In the year 2000, web developers were coding in AJAX which only used to work in IE. They stopped because only IE supported it at that time. Yes, IE did make there own standards but they are some of the foundation standards which today even W3C adopted & follows. Microsoft has made many standards in the computing world today, U don't even realize it.

IE 6 was indeed not standard complaint compared to Firefox but IE 8 isn't. IE 8 is a lot more standard complaint compared to IE 6 or IE 7 & Microsoft is on the right track to deliver a fully standard complaint browser. I myself now work with some web developer & they agree that IE 8 is lot better then IE 6 for web development.

As an implication of this these web sites do not render as well in other browser as in MSIE, putting other browsers at a disadvantage.

This no longer happens. Those websites which used to work fine in IE 6 or IE 7 now break in IE 8. It is upto developers to update there site so that it works in both IE 8 & Firefox with good standard.

This would have never happened if IE had followed standards and MS had been ethical.

Dude, do u even realize how many standards Microsoft made which today Firefox & Opera are using in there browser engine? In the beaning there were no standards, Netscape had there own standards of doing things while MS had there own. Due to the market share of IE, the standards which IE made dominated the market & they are some of the basic standards. Do u even know what a standard in W3C is & how it was created or did u just read it on some blog or Anti-MS website due to which u r talking like this?

And I dunno why you guys are reacting angrily to this, MS is not stopped bundling IE, rather they are forced to bundle other browsers which is a win-win situation for consumers and web developers.

Which also means more bloat & support hassle to Microsoft for a software they did not make. U R in India so U don't know the support situation Europeans & U.S people create. If there is a problem in Firefox bundled in Windows then lame & new users will blame MS saying "The biggest software company in this world sux, couldn't they test this software before bundling".

As for "An App not following Windows guideline", oh please...MS could modify FF src code and also of Webkit...to make it integrated with Windows. Hell they could also call it Microsoft Firefox or Microsoft Iceweasel or IE Webkit or something

Start working bro, you will know that creating something is always better then borrowing some code cos when u create the code, u know how things work.

They (US' Crappy Laws) don't allow Linux distros to bundle Media Codecs due to stupid damn patents. I scarcely think MS faces anything close to as bad as this.

Microsoft won't. They pay licensing fees to thompsan multimedia & other companies to bundle there codec support in Windows. When you buy a Windows Vista edition, some money paid goes to license authors.

 

[Liverpool_fan]

In the year 2000, web developers were coding in AJAX which only used to work in IE. They stopped because only IE supported it at that time. Yes, IE did make there own standards but they are some of the foundation standards which today even W3C adopted & follows. Microsoft has made many standards in the computing world today, U don't even realize it.

I appreciate what Microsoft gave to the world with IE. However one cannot forget where they did wrong as well. And TBH they weren't alone; Netscape too was highly guilty..

IE 6 was indeed not standard complaint compared to Firefox but IE 8 isn't. IE 8 is a lot more standard complaint compared to IE 6 or IE 7 & Microsoft is on the right track to deliver a fully standard complaint browser. I myself now work with some web developer & they agree that IE 8 is lot better then IE 6 for web development.



This no longer happens. Those websites which used to work fine in IE 6 or IE 7 now break in IE 8. It is upto developers to update there site so that it works in both IE 8 & Firefox with good standard.

Excellent. I guess with Windows 7 and IE8, MS is trying to turn over a good leaf. Hopefully they'll soon understand that simplicity and competence would do they more good.
I have also heard IE8 is good to be standards compliant, and nothing can be better than that...

Dude, do u even realize how many standards Microsoft made which today Firefox & Opera are using in there browser engine? In the beaning there were no standards, Netscape had there own standards of doing things while MS had there own. Due to the market share of IE, the standards which IE made dominated the market & they are some of the basic standards. Do u even know what a standard in W3C is & how it was created or did u just read it on some blog or Anti-MS website due to which u r talking like this?

I know the history, it's of special interest to me.
However IE6 was not standards compliant, and neither was IE7 either, and whether that was in good intentions or not, it out other browsers at a disadvantage.
Hopefully with a more standardized IE8, this should no longer be the case...

Which also means more bloat & support hassle to Microsoft for a software they did not make. U R in India so U don't know the support situation Europeans & U.S people create. If there is a problem in Firefox bundled in Windows then lame & new users will blame MS saying "The biggest software company in this world sux, couldn't they test this software before bundling".

This did not come to my mind. But maybe they could put a browser choices in Welcome center, and if user chooses other than IE, they could warn it's not supported by MS. No?

Start working bro, you will know that creating something is always better then borrowing some code cos when u create the code, u know how things work.

Actually it depends a lot on the situation. In some cases while maintaing own's code is better, but on other cases using other's code is better. But of course MS is a huge corporation, so I guess they don't need to depend on anyone, but nothing stops them from deriving benefits.
And sometimes embracing alternatives can actually bring profit. (Apache + Windows for instance)

Microsoft won't. They pay licensing fees to thompsan multimedia & other companies to bundle there codec support in Windows. When you buy a Windows Vista edition, some money paid goes to license authors.

You misunderstand me. I wasn't referring to Microsoft to what you quoted. What I was saying is what MS is probably facing due to this EU's judgement to which people are describing as mindless/crappy, Linux distros face far worse in terms of codecs licensing.
Laws in general are confusing and there is no thing such as fair law or judgement particularly regarding software.

 

[chooza]

In the year 2000, web developers were coding in AJAX which only used to work in IE. They stopped because only IE supported it at that time. Yes, IE did make there own standards but they are some of the foundation standards which today even W3C adopted & follows. Microsoft has made many standards in the computing world today, U don't even realize it.

IE 6 was indeed not standard complaint compared to Firefox but IE 8 isn't. IE 8 is a lot more standard complaint compared to IE 6 or IE 7 & Microsoft is on the right track to deliver a fully standard complaint browser. I myself now work with some web developer & they agree that IE 8 is lot better then IE 6 for web development.



This no longer happens. Those websites which used to work fine in IE 6 or IE 7 now break in IE 8. It is upto developers to update there site so that it works in both IE 8 & Firefox with good standard.


Dude, do u even realize how many standards Microsoft made which today Firefox & Opera are using in there browser engine? In the beaning there were no standards, Netscape had there own standards of doing things while MS had there own. Due to the market share of IE, the standards which IE made dominated the market & they are some of the basic standards. Do u even know what a standard in W3C is & how it was created or did u just read it on some blog or Anti-MS website due to which u r talking like this?



Which also means more bloat & support hassle to Microsoft for a software they did not make. U R in India so U don't know the support situation Europeans & U.S people create. If there is a problem in Firefox bundled in Windows then lame & new users will blame MS saying "The biggest software company in this world sux, couldn't they test this software before bundling".



Start working bro, you will know that creating something is always better then borrowing some code cos when u create the code, u know how things work.



Microsoft won't. They pay licensing fees to thompsan multimedia & other companies to bundle there codec support in Windows. When you buy a Windows Vista edition, some money paid goes to license authors.

Brother, dont talk such technical terms overhere, people here are just followers, they will not understand it. They only know that Linux is free, Firefox is best and Windows is Crap. No use of arguing these.

 

[iMav]

It would be better if they had an option to uninstall internet explorer than bundle other browsers. It's an insane ruling.

Every time the IE issue comes up, you say you want an option to un-install it. Can I know what bothers you if you set Opera or Firefox or Chrome or Safari or Maxthon as your default browser? Is it hard-disk space?
----
As far as the EU is concerned oh well, bundling FF with Ubuntu is perfectly fine for them or Safari with OS X is absolutely legal, but if MSFT bundles IE it becomes a huge monopoly issue!

Let's see, remove IE 'coz it's monopoly; remove WMP 'coz it's monopoly & give consumers an OS that is crippled & useless out of the box! Wow! That would make my life as a user a hell lot easier! Go for it AMEU.

I buy a PC, I pay 70,000/- & get myself a brand new spanking hot, totally pimped Dell XPS only to boot into it & see that I don't have an internet browser or a media player. And guess what, not having a browser pretty much makes life difficult for me to download 1 too!

The last thing I want is to be remembering & typing lame codes to download a browser!

 

[MetalheadGautham]

Every time the IE issue comes up, you say you want an option to un-install it. Can I know what bothers you if you set Opera or Firefox or Chrome or Safari or Maxthon as your default browser? Is it hard-disk space?

I think he meant that an option in Add/Remove Programs to 100% remove IE/WMP should exist.

----
As far as the EU is concerned oh well, bundling FF with Ubuntu is perfectly fine for them or Safari with OS X is absolutely legal, but if MSFT bundles IE it becomes a huge monopoly issue!

Let's see, remove IE 'coz it's monopoly; remove WMP 'coz it's monopoly & give consumers an OS that is crippled & useless out of the box! Wow! That would make my life as a user a hell lot easier! Go for it AMEU.

I buy a PC, I pay 70,000/- & get myself a brand new spanking hot, totally pimped Dell XPS only to boot into it & see that I don't have an internet browser or a media player. And guess what, not having a browser pretty much makes life difficult for me to download 1 too!

The last thing I want is to be remembering & typing lame codes to download a browser!

Fully Agree.

 

[chooza]

Every time the IE issue comes up, you say you want an option to un-install it. Can I know what bothers you if you set Opera or Firefox or Chrome or Safari or Maxthon as your default browser? Is it hard-disk space?
----
As far as the EU is concerned oh well, bundling FF with Ubuntu is perfectly fine for them or Safari with OS X is absolutely legal, but if MSFT bundles IE it becomes a huge monopoly issue!

Let's see, remove IE 'coz it's monopoly; remove WMP 'coz it's monopoly & give consumers an OS that is crippled & useless out of the box! Wow! That would make my life as a user a hell lot easier! Go for it AMEU.

I buy a PC, I pay 70,000/- & get myself a brand new spanking hot, totally pimped Dell XPS only to boot into it & see that I don't have an internet browser or a media player. And guess what, not having a browser pretty much makes life difficult for me to download 1 too!

The last thing I want is to be remembering & typing lame codes to download a browser!

I too agree with you Bro.

 

[gxsaurav]

I think he meant that an option in Add/Remove Programs to 100% remove IE/WMP should exist.

I wonder,....why? Is it slowing your browsing in firefox? Is it stopping u from playing Ogg files???

Tell u what...if the 3rd party vendors can make there browser engine fully integrated inside the shell of Windows, like IE has then even I would advocate Microsoft to completely remove IE & give users an options. Until they can make a browser engine for an OS, they should not say to remove IE.

 

[MetalheadGautham]

I wonder,....why? Is it slowing your browsing in firefox? Is it stopping u from playing Ogg files???

Tell u what...if the 3rd party vendors can make there browser engine fully integrated inside the shell of Windows, like IE has then even I would advocate Microsoft to completely remove IE & give users an options. Until they can make a browser engine for an OS, they should not say to remove IE.

Look, nobody is asking MS to remove IE here. They just want MS to HELP them remove IE if they don't like it.

I too want Windows Movie Maker, Windows Media Player, Windows Explorer, Windows Games, etc to be bundled with the OS. But I would appriciate it if MS could enable us to completely remove them as easily as removing 3rd party apps, and at the same time add them back with equal ease.

 

[iMav]

I think he meant that an option in Add/Remove Programs to 100% remove IE/WMP should exist.

OK, but why is what I want to know. Why is having IE as a back-up browser so much of a problem. Don't use it, let it be there. Why do you want to get rid of it?

 

[gxsaurav]

Sorry, this I wrote long back which you should read again. Internet Explorer frontend can be removed from Windows even now but the Trident engine cannot be removed because the OS needs it.

 

[MetalheadGautham]

OK, but why is what I want to know. Why is having IE as a back-up browser so much of a problem. Don't use it, let it be there. Why do you want to get rid of it?

The answer is same as the answer to the question why people uninstall games after playing them and backing up save files. To save hard disc space. Now is the flash memory and netbook era. Space is valuble.

Besides, having *just* the things you need makes the OS look really neat and elegent.

Anyway, isn't MS already implementing this ? I heard Windows 7 is highly modular and you can add/remove anything you want ?

 

[x3060]

if that's the case i want to get rid of movie maker first . although i could do it via nlite and vlite

 

[desiibond]

^^win7 will not have

mail
movie maker
messenger

you have to install Live pack for these.

 

[x3060]

now i see why win7 is gonna rock

 

[infra_red_dude]

Why should Microsoft bundle a product with Windows...

Agree with you...

... which they did not create, which doesn't follow the Windows' native UI guidelines, doesn't follow the Windows recommended way of creating an application,....

.. but not for these reasons.

If some customer has some problem they will call Microsoft for some thing they did not create. Why why why...

Ditto! People will start blaming MS then which definitely is not right. I agree with you completely here.

Whats the difference here due to which Windows is blamed? Oh & by the way, EU wants Microsoft to pre-install other browsers, so with this logic Ubuntu should also come with Opera, Chrome, Konqurer pre-installed.

Your logic if flawed. Linux distros (except the ones like Linspire etc.) are required to bundle the source code with the OS. Opera is NOT opensource and Konqueror requires all of the KDE libraries in a non-KDE environment hence its not bundled with Ubuntu (but it is bundled with Kubuntu, which makes sense). Chrome is new kid on the block. Give it some time and I'm sure you'll surely see it soon bundled.

People use IE because they chose to...

Oh please come out of this misconception!!!!

...but do u know that you can replace with Explorer with Aston completely.

No I didn't. And I bet millions out there who use Windows don't know that too.

Ever heard of Windows Marketplace?

I bet 90% of "mundane" Windows users haf never ever heard of that.

there is a BIG difference. in ubuntu, its not 3rd party servers which host konqueror.

This statement makes absolutely no sense to me!

Nothing is "forced" upon you. You are always free to replace Nautilus with PCManFM (the way I did ) in Ubuntu.

Windows is no different. It doesn't say "If you install 3rd party software I'll screw your system!". Its just that GNU/Linux users usually know about a bunch of alternatives.

Ubuntu does not try to hide the fact that there exists a browser called Midori for linux or that there is a file manager called rox for example.

I bet 100% of casual/first time Ubuntu users do not know this!

Within the OS, in Synaptic, you have a list of all available software for ubuntu, atleast, a HUGE MAJORITY. This is what EU expected MS to do with Windows N editions, and they did do it, when the users were presented with a list of media players available and links to their web pages.

I think its a nice idea to haf an interface to Windows MarketPlace on the desktop after first install. Tho I'm all for a name change. MarketPlace will shoo away most of the users! But just because Debian based distros haf Synaptic so should Windows, is a dumb comparison.

I guess anti-trust laws are valid only for high market share products.

You are wrong, my friend.

Dont criticize them on the ground that you use Linux/BSD/Solaris.

Nod.. nod.. I mean.. affirmative

Brother, dont talk such technical terms overhere, people here are just followers, they will not understand it. They only know that Linux is free, Firefox is best and Windows is Crap. No use of arguing these.

Yes, we know what you wanted to say from your last post. Posting such things will only lead to more flame wars. So please try to stay away from such comments.

Every time the IE issue comes up, you say you want an option to un-install it. Can I know what bothers you if you set Opera or Firefox or Chrome or Safari or Maxthon as your default browser? Is it hard-disk space?

Exactly my question!

The answer is same as the answer to the question why people uninstall games after playing them and backing up save files. To save hard disc space. Now is the flash memory and netbook era. Space is valuble.

I find this argument dumb, but then.. maybe.. its just me!

now i see why win7 is gonna rock

lol...

 

[MetalheadGautham]

^^win7 will not have

mail
movie maker
messenger

you have to install Live pack for these.

I thought its lighter than vista ? So when vista DVD image is 2GB compressed, Win7 should have less, right ?

Then WHY can't MS use the extra free 2.6GB to give us optional installables like messenger, movie maker, mail, visual studio 2008 express editon, office viewer, etc ? The space would be more than enough.

This statement makes absolutely no sense to me!

GX asked WHY ubuntu does not bundle konqueror in its CD.
So I said that in ubuntu, the fact that konqueror is existing in its own repos is enough to mean that ubuntu "bundles" konqueror in some way. Not that I support the EU ruling though.

Windows is no different. It doesn't say "If you install 3rd party software I'll screw your system!". Its just that GNU/Linux users usually know about a bunch of alternatives.

Point taken.

I bet 100% of casual/first time Ubuntu users do not know this!

but they WILL know if they see ubuntuguide
and most people who install ubuntu and ask for help are adviced to read it in entity.

I find this argument dumb, but then.. maybe.. its just me!

Let me guess: you have a 320GB HDD ?

I think its a nice idea to haf an interface to Windows MarketPlace on the desktop after first install. Tho I'm all for a name change. MarketPlace will shoo away most of the users! But just because Debian based distros haf Synaptic so should Windows, is a dumb comparison.

Ditto for Android. Marketplace always makes it look like something paid or restricted in some way. Why not Windows Software Archive or something like that ?

 

[Liverpool_fan]

I still fail to see why so much anger to this ruling? IE is *still* being and will be bundled with Microsoft Windows. Only MS is forced to bundle web browsers.
Tell you what...even 3rd party browsers like Opera should not really desire to be bundled with Windows. Since they are updated often, that version would be outdated pretty soon.
What I think and want to happen with this ruling is MS giving a choice in the Welcome Center, or make a desktop shortcut; like Connect to Internet which would launch a Wizard, allowing user to make their choice (multiple choices IMO), if they choose IE, IE's shorcuts and path would be installed (since it would be initially installed but hidden, or maybe front end would be not be installed by default and would be installed by this step) and if they choose say Opera, Opera would be automatically downloaded and installed.
And they could put a disclaimer if user chooses anything other than IE, that support for that particular browser would be provided by the other company rather than Microsoft.
This would be ultimate win for both IE and other web browsers.
And tell you waht it would make MS Windows even more friendly to use.
Hell I wouldn't mind Ubuntu having such a wizard.

As for WMP, hasn't EU already stopped MS from bundling it with the Windows N edition? And unless I am highly mistaken it had more to do with the closed codecs of WMP. If MS has kept their own codecs royalty free, and also claimed support for FLAC, ogg, by default in WMP, that wouldn't happened.
Of course that's how I feel, others may be feel differently.

 

[desiibond]

I thought its lighter than vista ? So when vista DVD image is 2GB compressed, Win7 should have less, right ?

Then WHY can't MS use the extra free 2.6GB to give us optional installables like messenger, movie maker, mail, visual studio 2008 express editon, office viewer, etc ? The space would be more than enough.

Do you remember what everyone says about Sony laptops. They install lot of freeware and trialware (a.k.a bloatware) with windows image making the OS heavy right out of the box. The best way to keep windows share growing is by keeping it simple yet effective, light yet resourceful.

Filling windows install disc with s/w's will not do any good.

2.6 GB free space doesn't mean that they should fill it up. The size of win7's image is bigger than that of Vista, mainly due to bigger driver pack.