Education : Indian students in Germany need not pay to study
^They're already ahead of UK at least in engineering. CS and mech in Germany is too good.
AcceleratorX
Youngling
This is good stuff. Need to do some research as to how well Germany Higher education in the field of electronics nd computer engineering fare against that of USA nd uk...
Might be a little off-topic, but why do Indian students have such a craze for Electronics and Computer Engineering? Even when going abroad few students think beyond these two streams. What gives? There is good work everywhere, yet in India all I find is people craving for 3 streams (Mechanical/Computer/Electronics Engineering).
Real Electronics is not even what you call "Electronics Engineering" in India; Electronics is a science (Computers too).
The thing is, I find far too many Indian students focused on "this technology" and "that technology" and industry, and very few who are actually thinking about how this works and the bigger picture. If this continues, Indian science and technology industry will go into decline (some might say its already declining). This includes "elite" students of elite institutions.
+10000
+1Computer Engineering and Computer Science are two different fields outside India.
mostly CS students are awarded a bachelor of science degree while CE students get bachelor of applied science or bachelor of engineering
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_engineering
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Science
bubusam13
Human
I have to question what you mean ? In India also there is BSc in Electronics and MSc in Electronics. Here you will be taught from the scratch. As of Engineering, it is a professional course and actually industry oriented courses.
And yes many are crazy. Reasons are varying, parents, society etc. And there is nothing like real electronics or fake electronics. Its actually a very vast area and each degree focuses on different aspects of electronics. Which itself is based on physics and chemistry.
And most importantly be it BS or MS or B.Tech or M.Tech in electronics, you wont be taught everything, because you cant be taught everything. You have to learn by yourself. Thats why the library is for and wikipedia and the wild wild web
AcceleratorX
Youngling
bubusam13 said:
There is indeed, but not in all universities. And it leans towards engineering.
Classically speaking there is no such thing as "Electronics Engineering". The circuit design using Electronic components is not different at all on a basic level compared to Electrical Engineering.
Yes, these are broad fields. But design of systems and circuitry is the domain of Electrical Engineering and indeed you will see most research in circuitry, systems and telecommunication comes from various Electrical Engineering departments around the world as that's what Electronics Engineering really is: A subset of Electrical Engineering.
"Electronics" is the study of motion of electron and devices that utilize the results of said studies. As such any electronic device falls into this area, as well as certain sensors and instrumentation, etc. Electronics is a science because it is directly tied to the laws of physics. Most electronics engineers today have little idea how things like thermodynamics, electromagnetics, mechanics, statistical mechanics and optics influence the working of devices and indeed the progress of technology in their field. And how many electronics engineers (or even the people with BSc and MSc in Electronics) in India know the basics of solid state physics and condensed matter physics? Things like bandgaps, energy bands, molecular orbitals? People say it's unnecessary, but if you're designing and modern electronic device or even fabricating/designing a chip on a process of specific width, all of this comes into play (will not go into details here).
Today, around the world: The theoretical side of electronics is mostly investigated by physicists, with some electrical engineers also doing the work. In India, there are few opportunities even in the few cases when the equipment is there mainly because engineering departments are always geared towards circuitry rather than doing the research.
Because Electronics involves, in general, a lot of research and analysis, it is a branch of applied science. The circuitry part is what constitutes the engineering part of it, and it is easily done by electrical engineers as well. This is why you don't frequently see "Electronics Engineering" as a separate department in scientifically developed nations: Because it is an applied science.
And even though universities do good work in both aspects, the fact of the matter is this. If I work on high-quality sensors, precision instrumentation and nano-devices as part of a thesis in a science department, it is thought of as "changing the field" because your ultimate degree in such a case is in science. As a result, it is extremely difficult for a "science" guy to switch into "engineering" (or vice-versa) because the Indian system specifically discriminates. In today's complex ICs with their ultra-thin silicon wafer manufacturing process, the properties of the process, the wafer dimensions are equally important.
Also, the classical circuit theory laws really don't hold under specific circumstances, in which case you are better off directly regulating the flow of electrons using the laws of physics instead of the laws of electrical engineering (e.g. Microwave Engineering and Accelerator Physics, both also applied sciences for similar reasons).
So what's wrong with our system? It has no direction. Electronics the "applied science" has not been differentiated from the "practical" circuit side of Electronics. Both the BSc/MSc courses and the BTech/MTech courses have very similar syllabi with not a lot of difference between them. Ultimately they all end up in an engineering department and the research usually focuses on applications rather than devices.
There are two problems with this approach: The first is that industry doesn't recognize the two as being equivalent, even though they are, and the second is that someone who is interested in the science part of it should not be forced to end up in the engineering part of it (and vice versa).
That is why "Electronics Engineering" should be always the domain of Electrical Engineers. Because they can still do the job and do it very well, while still creating scope for physicists and applied science to get jobs as well as perform research.
bubusam13 said:
The problem is that Electronics Engineering as a separate branch is not necessary for any industry. All circuitry work can be done by Electrical Engineers without any issue and the more complicated problems generally fall into the domain of computer science, computer engineering or applied science/applied physics (assuming only a B.Tech level education).
What this system does is limit the scope rather than enhance the scope by means of super-specialization, removing any and all scope for interdisciplinary education. For example, because of this very branch a lot of Electrical Engineers who may be interested and good at circuit design will not be the first preferred option because the Indian industry thinks an "Electronics Engineer" is better for the job when it is just not true.
Similar example: An Electronics Engineer who is interested in Electrical Machines and Power Electronics will have just as hard a time finding a job doing something like that because people always think this is more suited for an "Electrical Engineer". Again, not true. This interferes with the freedom of which job the person wants to apply to.
More importantly, it limits the scope for science graduates/postgraduates. Why do you need an engineer for modeling and simulation of a control system when someone specialized in mathematical physics or applied mathematics can do the job just as well? Control Systems are basically just mathematical models of practical systems. Similarly, why do I need an engineer to work on sensors and instrumentation when a physicist can also do the job just as well?
Finally, I also want to say not everyone joins a course for the prospects of a good job and work. Some are actually interested in what they are studying and it is this type of candidate that you want studying in your college. Tomorrow they should not be deprived of opportunities because of the name of the degree in which they graduated. Industry needs to realize science and engineering are very close, that you need both to progress in innovation, research as well as getting a competitive product out, and that a degree is a degree: no such thing as "professional" and non-professional degree. I haven't said anything against other Engineering branches because they do not overlap with the sciences: only Electronics has this problem.
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bubusam13
Human
Ohh my my. Why have you written so much. Who will read it ?
I haven't read. Just tell me what you mean by real electronics ? In B.E/B.Tech you were just given an idea. Tn M.Tech, there is specialization like VLSI design, embedded etc. If you go for PHd, you get more specialized. Anyway what you do ?
I haven't read. Just tell me what you mean by real electronics ? In B.E/B.Tech you were just given an idea. Tn M.Tech, there is specialization like VLSI design, embedded etc. If you go for PHd, you get more specialized. Anyway what you do ?
bubusam13
Human
Donot speak so classically. I have my friends in electrical and I am from Electronics. None of us get hook or crook of each other after 3rd semester. I studied VLSI, Embedded, DSP etc. and they something other. Have you at least gone through the books of later semester. We are not even taught basic circuit design that you are telling. We learned by ourself.
In Graduation they are not taught. You have to find some specialized Masters course for it. For Electrical Machines he should have taken Electrical Engineering. What he is doing in Electroincs ? Choosing the wrong Branch and then blaming upon Electronics. I donno in India they have some course on power electronics. His mistake. He should have consulted some career adviser first.
I am not justifying Indian education system here, but you are putting some wrong points. For power electronics, see this, *www.nitt.edu/home/academics/curriculum/8.Power%20electronics.pdf
He have to graduate in electronics and then join Mtech in Power Electronics
See this *www.rvce.edu.in/mtech_power_ele.php
AcceleratorX
Youngling
I guess my post turned out to be very big, I apologize. Sometimes I have a lot of thoughts on a subject and they just "flow out"......
I guess I'll repeat: Electronics means study of motion of electrons and all related results, scientific phenomena and how you can use the conclusions from such observations. It may or may not include circuit design. But because it involves study of electrons and investigation of several physical phenomena due to electric fields and motions of electrons as well as the medium in which it flows, it is an applied science. Electrical Engineering, for example, doesn't depend on science other than basic laws. A motor is still a motor and works very much the same irrespective of which materials you use to make it. Not the same with Electronics, as frequency effects and choice of materials will change things greatly.
Both Electrical and Electronics Engineers know basic circuit laws as well as 1st year physics, digital electronics and electromagnetics, right? You only said you can learn whatever is needed later. Anyway, Electrical Machines is just the application of basic electromechanical force law that people might be knowing from 12th. It's not like an electrical engineer cannot make head and tail of what a CMOS inverter is (since ultimate analysis is based on KVL) and that an Electronics Engineer cannot learn about the Electric Machines (again, equivalent circuits of motors and generators are there). It's all circuitry: Anyone with knowledge in circuit analysis can do it (with some study, effort and practice of course). Trust me, they do it.....
You need to realize all branches are connected to each other. There will obviously be students who think about how for e.g. Mechanical Engineering and Electrical Engineering are related (e.g. Robotics, Control, etc.). Unfortunately you have to select one or the other. But that doesn't mean you can't work in the other especially if you know the concepts for the particular type of job you are applying to!
For the record I'm an Electronics Engineer too. I had machines, power electronics as well as DC and AC drives. I also had VLSI, embedded, DSP etc. like you say. But it's irrelevant. Like I said, anyone who knows the basics should be able to do the job. Nothing is different or special about an Electric Machine except that AC circuitry is rarer in Electronics. Similarly all of electronics is based on application of circuit laws along with implementation of specific devices based on principles taken from physics (except say DSP and networking which are more mathematical or have roots in computer science).
Sure, I know that. That's besides the point (some institutes allow it, some don't). But I know for a fact an ECE engineer has a hard time in electrical industry because of the ECE degree (forget the M.Tech for now). Not everyone wants to do an M.Tech either (some can't for whatever reason).
There is no wrong point there. Electronics Engineering, if necessary, would be a degree in all of the world's universities. Instead most (not all of course) universities abroad choose to have Electrical Engineering only and not a specific Electronics Engineering branch. What ECE does is take away other people's jobs.
bubusam13 said:
I guess I'll repeat: Electronics means study of motion of electrons and all related results, scientific phenomena and how you can use the conclusions from such observations. It may or may not include circuit design. But because it involves study of electrons and investigation of several physical phenomena due to electric fields and motions of electrons as well as the medium in which it flows, it is an applied science. Electrical Engineering, for example, doesn't depend on science other than basic laws. A motor is still a motor and works very much the same irrespective of which materials you use to make it. Not the same with Electronics, as frequency effects and choice of materials will change things greatly.
bubusam13 said:
Both Electrical and Electronics Engineers know basic circuit laws as well as 1st year physics, digital electronics and electromagnetics, right? You only said you can learn whatever is needed later. Anyway, Electrical Machines is just the application of basic electromechanical force law that people might be knowing from 12th. It's not like an electrical engineer cannot make head and tail of what a CMOS inverter is (since ultimate analysis is based on KVL) and that an Electronics Engineer cannot learn about the Electric Machines (again, equivalent circuits of motors and generators are there). It's all circuitry: Anyone with knowledge in circuit analysis can do it (with some study, effort and practice of course). Trust me, they do it.....
bubusam13 said:
You need to realize all branches are connected to each other. There will obviously be students who think about how for e.g. Mechanical Engineering and Electrical Engineering are related (e.g. Robotics, Control, etc.). Unfortunately you have to select one or the other. But that doesn't mean you can't work in the other especially if you know the concepts for the particular type of job you are applying to!
For the record I'm an Electronics Engineer too. I had machines, power electronics as well as DC and AC drives. I also had VLSI, embedded, DSP etc. like you say. But it's irrelevant. Like I said, anyone who knows the basics should be able to do the job. Nothing is different or special about an Electric Machine except that AC circuitry is rarer in Electronics. Similarly all of electronics is based on application of circuit laws along with implementation of specific devices based on principles taken from physics (except say DSP and networking which are more mathematical or have roots in computer science).
AcceleratorX said:
Sure, I know that. That's besides the point (some institutes allow it, some don't). But I know for a fact an ECE engineer has a hard time in electrical industry because of the ECE degree (forget the M.Tech for now). Not everyone wants to do an M.Tech either (some can't for whatever reason).
There is no wrong point there. Electronics Engineering, if necessary, would be a degree in all of the world's universities. Instead most (not all of course) universities abroad choose to have Electrical Engineering only and not a specific Electronics Engineering branch. What ECE does is take away other people's jobs.
bubusam13
Human
For Electrical Machines look this Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi
I realize all branches are connected. But Graduation is just a Basic concept. To get more specialized you have to go for M.Tech. You can differentiate between Electronics and Electrical Engineering based on what some graduates learn. Look at the Masters and PhDs. There the difference lies.
I realize all branches are connected. But Graduation is just a Basic concept. To get more specialized you have to go for M.Tech. You can differentiate between Electronics and Electrical Engineering based on what some graduates learn. Look at the Masters and PhDs. There the difference lies.
AcceleratorX
Youngling
They all come with riders. For example, to give GATE in Electrical Engineering if you're an Electronics Engineer for the M.Tech in Power Electronics (not sure if that's the case in your links). If the candidate has studied power electronics, and machines but wants nothing to do with electrical measuring instruments and HVDC, why should he be forced to study that for GATE? If anything, that will reduce his chances....Like I said, the system is very inflexible and doesn't accommodate that different people study different things.
For job, nobody requires or needs an M.Tech in India (but yes always good to have more degrees). They are still restricted in terms of job. For those who are interested to study further, see what I said above. Specialization is not the answer. Technology gets more and more complex. You need people who are able to make sense of how this system works along with another system (if you're thinking you'd be fabricating an IC without the help of a chemical engineer, think again). Things are made especially difficult for such people as there are not a lot of interdisciplinary programs, nor does industry know what to do with them.
Anyway, it still doesn't justify that many scientists will not get jobs even though they are qualified because of ECE being demanded by the industry due to it being perceived as "better".
In foreign nations, you'd be surprised just how many people have a physics degree and are yet doing all kinds of engineering work. In fact electronics industry hires the most physicists. In India? Neither the research is there, nor any real circuit design (most are outsourced to China). And of course, a lot of electrical engineers and physicists don't get a job in an industry where they'd fit well.
Oh: BTW, even in IITs and NITs, the first preferred option for those M.Tech programs are Electrical Engineers......
bubusam13 said:
For job, nobody requires or needs an M.Tech in India (but yes always good to have more degrees). They are still restricted in terms of job. For those who are interested to study further, see what I said above. Specialization is not the answer. Technology gets more and more complex. You need people who are able to make sense of how this system works along with another system (if you're thinking you'd be fabricating an IC without the help of a chemical engineer, think again). Things are made especially difficult for such people as there are not a lot of interdisciplinary programs, nor does industry know what to do with them.
Anyway, it still doesn't justify that many scientists will not get jobs even though they are qualified because of ECE being demanded by the industry due to it being perceived as "better".
In foreign nations, you'd be surprised just how many people have a physics degree and are yet doing all kinds of engineering work. In fact electronics industry hires the most physicists. In India? Neither the research is there, nor any real circuit design (most are outsourced to China). And of course, a lot of electrical engineers and physicists don't get a job in an industry where they'd fit well.
Oh: BTW, even in IITs and NITs, the first preferred option for those M.Tech programs are Electrical Engineers......
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bubusam13
Human
:O :O
Strictly depends on what sort of job you are doing.
That's why you need to choose your career path at early before graduation. You have to go for electrical engineering or electronics. And that's why career counselors are there. Since there is no such flexibility in India.
Anyway, leave it, off topics. People learn form personal experiences. You are justifying what you have learned, and me mine. Anyway, ta ta all Good Night
AcceleratorX
Youngling
Isn't that the huge problem?
The simple solution is to do what the rest of the world does and remove ECE! It can't happen now of course because ECE is just as much a status symbol as it is a degree (Not denying that it's a difficult course, but still). It will give a lifeline to a lot of science graduates as well and electrical engineering will have a greater scope (also, all the specializations can remain as they are for master's).
They need to accommodate these students as well. That's why I'm not a big fan of entrance exams in general, because they completely filter out the real-world part of the subject as well as the interdisciplinary knowledge, as well as completely ignore students who have had an interdisciplinary education. As a result, everyone suffers: The college gets less good students, the industry misses potentially great candidates, possible new research frontiers these students could have brought to the table are now gone and the students struggles.
Career counselors are only necessary when you don't have an idea. When you have an idea and are only restricted because somebody thinks you cannot do something, you are not at fault.
In foreign nations like Germany, they accomodate you very well and do not discriminate based on the name of the degree. Yet, I see a lot of Indian students go for a nice-sounding name even in foreign nations, so they'll try for a "Computer Engineering" degree instead of "Computer Science" even if both departments have what they are looking for!
The simple solution is to do what the rest of the world does and remove ECE! It can't happen now of course because ECE is just as much a status symbol as it is a degree
(Not denying that it's a difficult course, but still). It will give a lifeline to a lot of science graduates as well and electrical engineering will have a greater scope (also, all the specializations can remain as they are for master's).They need to accommodate these students as well. That's why I'm not a big fan of entrance exams in general, because they completely filter out the real-world part of the subject as well as the interdisciplinary knowledge, as well as completely ignore students who have had an interdisciplinary education. As a result, everyone suffers: The college gets less good students, the industry misses potentially great candidates, possible new research frontiers these students could have brought to the table are now gone and the students struggles.
Career counselors are only necessary when you don't have an idea. When you have an idea and are only restricted because somebody thinks you cannot do something, you are not at fault.
In foreign nations like Germany, they accomodate you very well and do not discriminate based on the name of the degree. Yet, I see a lot of Indian students go for a nice-sounding name even in foreign nations, so they'll try for a "Computer Engineering" degree instead of "Computer Science" even if both departments have what they are looking for!
Ironman
In the zone
As for fees
i Study in a State Govt Engg College , I pay 1k per month
ie 6k per sem
ie 12k per year
So is it low or high according to comparison ??
TRUE , but theres a CATCH ... You see i wanted to Study Aerospace and i have money constraints ....So i have to get in a Govt College ..... But there are so less govt colleges that have aerospace , that i had to take up Cs in a govt college