Camera below 30k

raja manuel

In the zone
Some Bridge Cams are faster than DSLRs, check out Panasonic FZ150/FZ200, I'd never seen a faster AF even on DSLRs.
The startup time alone of the FZ200 is 1 second while the Power On to First Shot time of my 600D is something like 0.3 second. That is what I was referring to when I said "camera coming alive and focussing".

That's true, with the sx50hs I have taken some amazing pics. Then again whenever I see some bird shot, or portraits the level of details in the feathers or furs are just too much for me not to drool upon. Even on Superfine mode I can't reach the level of photos that the DSLR's have. For example here's a pic that I took using sx30IS, and here's another using 550D (not my pic). Also I miss DOF in the mage.

I know that the photographer matters a lot, but I am sure you would agree that the difference in quality can't be ignore in the later image..

Going by the Matthias Besant's Flickr photostream, I would say that the photographer has made a lot of difference. He most probably had exclusive access, and perhaps an assistant with reflectors or even the luxury of setting up a radio triggered multi-flash system to achieve a very high degree of control over the lighting. There is also no mention of the lens used. Anyone wants to bet that is an L lens?
My point is that it is very difficult to compare the relative image quality of, say, an advanced Canon compact and a photo taken by a DSLR unless you are in a position to compare them yourself by shooting the same subject at the same time because that is the only way you can control for all the variables and take into account how many body parts you will need to sell in order to afford all that equipment. Since you might not be in a position to make such a comparison you could compare with photos taken by your friends in similar situations. At the very least, check the lens used to capture the rich detail you drool over. Also, are you comparing out of camera JPGs or processed Raw to Raw?

The photo you have taken is quite good. Is it an out of camera JPG or processed Raw?

Sony ALT series has amazingly fast focus. But I wont recommend them because of the EVF.

Some (many?) people like EVF because it offers the equivalent of Live View (exposure simulation). It is a valid point.

And DSLRs are the worst cameras to have if you want someone else to photograph you. Dear god, it has to be experienced to be believed.

Yes, it is a pain isn't it? By the way, have you tried photographing yourself using the self-timer? PnS is so much easier.
 
OP
raj_55555

raj_55555

Journeyman
The photo you have taken is quite good. Is it an out of camera JPG or processed Raw?

:-DThanks. That pic was out of camera JPG, also sx30IS never supported RAW shooting (without using CHDK).

Your post makes sense, and I don't have any experience whatsoever in DSLRs. So just one straight forward question, is it possible to get DSLR quality details using bridge cameras?(read FZ200 or sx50hs). I would hate to regret my decision later!
 

sujoyp

Grand Master
@raj a simple answer to your question is NO ....u can not get the details of a DSLR in a bridge camera...its because u expect too much from a bridge camera...u want it to zoom 30x then take macro shot upto 1mm then u want it to produce nice blurred background...and nice colors and uncompressed RAW files all that at 1/10th of the cost of DSLR pack :D :D

if all that a superzoom cam could do then y would people buy 2 lac DSLR and 5 lac lenses ;)

btw if u just want a okish quality and a all in one lens there is a SIgma 18-250 OS Macro
Sigma 18-250mm F/3.5-6.3 DC Macro OS HSM (For Nikon) Lens - Sigma: Flipkart.com

u can fit it on a D3100 and you wont need any other lens at all :) you will have a superzoom DSLR :D

VR means vibration reduction in nikon and IS=image stabilisation in canon,VC=vibration compensation in Tamron and OS=optical stabilisation in Sigma ...they help in taking shots in low shutter speed without shake.
L lens in canon are the white lenses which have garunteed good performance...just like iphone :) but they are costly
 

pranav0091

I am not an Owl
Some (many?) people like EVF because it offers the equivalent of Live View (exposure simulation). It is a valid point.



Yes, it is a pain isn't it? By the way, have you tried photographing yourself using the self-timer? PnS is so much easier.

Agree with the points you make, but I find the EVF to be very distracting and not suited for manual focus (Which is a big reason why I bought a DSLR in the first place). Secondly my Canon has a slider which indicates on a scale the exposure of the image at the current settings, never found the need to use live view to gauge it. These points are debatable, I realise, but I found it much more comfortable to use the regular OVF of the canon over the very techy sony EVF. Just my two cents. And also try shooting multiple images with decent panning while using an EVF ;)


Yeah I had tried it a couple of times and its not the most wrist friendly thing to do :(
 

sujoyp

Grand Master
@pranav...the best use of a EVF is for depth of preview and bokeh ....u can actually see how much area is in focus and what is blurred which is not possible in OVF untill u have DOF preview button on your cam...

when shooting macro I had to use back lcd coz i could not estimate if the insect is really in focus and background blurred cause OVF display no chage other than bright and dark with aperture
 

tkin

Back to school!!
The startup time alone of the FZ200 is 1 second while the Power On to First Shot time of my 600D is something like 0.3 second. That is what I was referring to when I said "camera coming alive and focussing".



Going by the Matthias Besant's Flickr photostream, I would say that the photographer has made a lot of difference. He most probably had exclusive access, and perhaps an assistant with reflectors or even the luxury of setting up a radio triggered multi-flash system to achieve a very high degree of control over the lighting. There is also no mention of the lens used. Anyone wants to bet that is an L lens?
My point is that it is very difficult to compare the relative image quality of, say, an advanced Canon compact and a photo taken by a DSLR unless you are in a position to compare them yourself by shooting the same subject at the same time because that is the only way you can control for all the variables and take into account how many body parts you will need to sell in order to afford all that equipment. Since you might not be in a position to make such a comparison you could compare with photos taken by your friends in similar situations. At the very least, check the lens used to capture the rich detail you drool over. Also, are you comparing out of camera JPGs or processed Raw to Raw?

The photo you have taken is quite good. Is it an out of camera JPG or processed Raw?



Some (many?) people like EVF because it offers the equivalent of Live View (exposure simulation). It is a valid point.



Yes, it is a pain isn't it? By the way, have you tried photographing yourself using the self-timer? PnS is so much easier.
I thought the AF time.
 

pranav0091

I am not an Owl
@pranav...the best use of a EVF is for depth of preview and bokeh ....u can actually see how much area is in focus and what is blurred which is not possible in OVF untill u have DOF preview button on your cam...

when shooting macro I had to use back lcd coz i could not estimate if the insect is really in focus and background blurred cause OVF display no chage other than bright and dark with aperture

I was talking about the EVF buddy, not the back LCD. :)

Yeah for macros its good to have the back LCD, again in my case the 600D has got the DOF button (oddly, I have never used it :|) and a nice flip LCD over the Sony's ALT 37. :)

One more thing. I just took out my camera. I see why I never used the DOF button, because the viewfinder itself shows me how the image is going to be. Then why do we need the DOF button? :?
 

sujoyp

Grand Master
I am also talking about EVF...the evf displays the exact exposure and background blurring thats going to be in the photograph...but the OVF does not...

you do not belive me..do a test....set your lens at 55mm and put a object such that the background is at lest 5 feet away...now when you will see in the OVF you will find the scene very normal and subject in focus....now press DOF button and u will see the background getting blurred...thats what u will see the final photograph...this thing EVF shows
 

pranav0091

I am not an Owl
Actually that what I did and exactly why I got confused. I hear something move in the lens and I do see the aperture changing with my naked eye, but I cant see any significant change it makes to the bokeh seen on the OVF. I do find that the image becomes a bit dimmer, but thats at the 18mm end. I am focussing at my tripod with the wall about 7-10 feet behind it.

BTW, I do see the same amount of bokeh on the OVF as I would see in an image :?
 
OP
raj_55555

raj_55555

Journeyman
@raj a simple answer to your question is NO ...
That seals it, I am getting a DSLR. :)

btw if u just want a okish quality and a all in one lens there is a SIgma 18-250 OS Macro
Actually I want very good quality images, even if it means having to wait for a couple months for the lens. I will learn in the mean while using the kit lens. I will keep an eye out for proper lens.

u can fit it on a D3100 and you wont need any other lens at all :) you will have a superzoom DSLR :D
Thanks sujoy bhai, but I really don't need a superzoom now, I know I did earlier. I guess I grew as a photographer :p

Thanks for all the detailed explanations. In all probability I will get the camera by tuesday. BTW 3 months old 600D body for 18K?? Isn't it a bit spooky?
 

pranav0091

I am not an Owl
Not actually. But if there is a bill, then it should come under warranty and you could get it.

The stock 18-55 IS II for the canon is priced at ~18k and I got my 600D @ 33k, so I think its a decent deal. But check before you buy about warranty.
 

sujoyp

Grand Master
@pranav ...I think u need a bigger aperture lens like 50mm 1.8 or 17-50 2.8 to see proper difference in DOF :) and 18-55 ISII dont cost 18 k but 8k :D

@raj 600D for 18k is too good to be true...u have to give the link to check....even if its used it wont come down to 22-24k body only.

please check again is it 600D or D60 ...and is it body only or with kit lens
 

sujoyp

Grand Master
yaah it seems its body only...and its 3 months old but it seems its a without bill and no warunty .....

you can give it a try...ask him if it have any defect...and if its under warrenty or gray....ask for the bill if he can show you at what price he bought.

then you have to get a lens saperately...which may cost 6-7k new and 4-5k used ....check that
 

pranav0091

I am not an Owl
I was looking at this one:
Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS Lens - Canon: Flipkart.com

I guess its inflated in price as its the older model and not Mark II.

@raj: Call him up and ask him why no warranty, see that reason he gives and then think about the rest. In the light of the price of the kit lens, now the offer of body-only at 18k is rather unusually low.
 

sujoyp

Grand Master
flipkart have gone nuts :D even canon official website puts 13K as MRP for there 18-55 EFS ISII ...soo the price you will get is around 9-10k

Now the deal have become bad coz u will end up spending 18+9k = 27k ...and u will get a new D5100+kit for 29.5-30k
 
OP
raj_55555

raj_55555

Journeyman
flipkart have gone nuts :D even canon official website puts 13K as MRP for there 18-55 EFS ISII ...soo the price you will get is around 9-10k

Now the deal have become bad coz u will end up spending 18+9k = 27k ...and u will get a new D5100+kit for 29.5-30k

I called that guy, seemed rather rude. Wasn't answering my questions clearly enough, disconnected in the middle of the conversation. I guess it's better not to deal with him. I will keep an eye out for such deals, I am sure I'll get some.
 

raja manuel

In the zone
Thanks. That pic was out of camera JPG, also sx30IS never supported RAW shooting (without using CHDK).

Yeah, that is what I meant. Have you tried to see what detail you can extract from the SX30IS Raw images using CHDK? Because I am sure that Matthias Besant shoots in Raw and post processes it to get it just right, rather than depending on standard picture style JPGs on his 550D. Even on my 600 with kit lens I am amazed at the amount of detail I can extract from an image when I use Raw rather than JPG though I am just playing around in DPP. This is why I suggested you do an apples to apples comparison against a DSLR, because you need to know whether a guy shooting the identical scene in JPG mode on his DSLR with a lens that doesn't cost as much as a car is going to make you drool at the level of detail compared to the SX30IS. Perhaps you can just search for SX30IS CHDK on Flickr to see if those images also take your breath away.

Your post makes sense, and I don't have any experience whatsoever in DSLRs. So just one straight forward question, is it possible to get DSLR quality details using bridge cameras?(read FZ200 or sx50hs). I would hate to regret my decision later!

The answer to this question depends on context, detail for what, and detail for how much. For instance, a photographer did a fashion shoot with an iPhone in 2010. If you study copyright disputes you find that low resolution images that we post on the web can easily be used for double spread magazine ads. Therefore, you need to ask yourself what 'DSLR quality details' amount to, when most people struggle to make out the difference when they don't know in advance what camera was used to take the pictures. As you can see from the write up in the link, the iPhone could be mistaken for a DSLR because of the amount of control the photographer had over the lighting, the way the model was made up, and many other factors that have nothing to do with the camera itself.

Coming to the question of detail for how much, here is a photo I took with my 600D from my balcony of a Kingfisher that stopped by my neighbour's garden (distance was about 8 metres):

Kingfisher - Full : Downscaled photo, just to show you how much the bird occupies in the frame at that distance with the 18-55mm lens at full zoom.
Kinfisher - Crop : This is a 100% crop from the full size image

The point here is, which gives more detail? The 100% crop from my 600D with its 3X kit lens, or an equally expensive Bridge camera with a 50X zoom lens (or even a much cheaper one with a 20X lens) which is zoomed all the way through? Will the far greater optical zoom on the Bridge beat the digital crop you get from the DSLR? I don't know the answer (never having tried this comparison myself) but this is the relevant question. You aren't Richie Rich, there is only so much you can afford, so within your financial capacity which will give you maximum bang for your buck? Back in the days when film cameras reigned supreme we didn't have these super zoom Bridge cameras or even medium zoom Compacts so the value proposition offered by DSLRs was obvious and compelling. Today the question is a lot more difficult to answer, and can be answered only by you taking into consideration the kind of photography you will actually end up doing.

Food for thought:
* DSLRs and their lenses are heavy, and a multi lens kit heavier still. Do you travel often by flight? Do you plan to hike long distances, particularly uphill, to get your shot?
* Places that charge for photography often charge more for DSLRs
* Some events, like motor races, limit the kind of camera you can bring based on length when lens is fully extended
* More and more places, like shopping malls, are banning DSLR photography

The best photographs I have taken (in terms of capturing the moment) are not from my 600D but from the good ol' 2.1 MP camera on my K750i, simply because it is always in my pocket. No one, absolutely no one, has ever looked at those photos and said, 'Oh, if only the lens had less chromatic aberration!' I am not denying that image quality matters, but beyond a certain point it matters only to guys like us who hang out on internet forums and pixel peep. We would criticise the Tank Man photo for being a bit soft and very grainy but the rest world, thankfully, sees it differently :)

Agree with the points you make, but I find the EVF to be very distracting and not suited for manual focus (Which is a big reason why I bought a DSLR in the first place). Secondly my Canon has a slider which indicates on a scale the exposure of the image at the current settings, never found the need to use live view to gauge it. These points are debatable, I realise, but I found it much more comfortable to use the regular OVF of the canon over the very techy sony EVF. Just my two cents. And also try shooting multiple images with decent panning while using an EVF
Exposure simulation is not actually limited to just exposure. You also get your picture styles, white balance settings, etc., in it. Just imagine you install Magic Langtern for your 600D and you can use its manual shooting assists from the viewfinder against your eye rather than from the panel at the back. I agree that today's EVFs have many constraints compared to OVFs but the future is going to belong to EVFs because of the many other features that they can support. I too prefer the OVF but I think its days are numbered.

Yeah for macros its good to have the back LCD, again in my case the 600D has got the DOF button (oddly, I have never used it ) and a nice flip LCD over the Sony's ALT 37.

One more thing. I just took out my camera. I see why I never used the DOF button, because the viewfinder itself shows me how the image is going to be. Then why do we need the DOF button?

While the optical viewfinder does allow you to look through the lens, depth of field is dependent on the aperture setting and the aperture stops down only when the photo is taken; the aperture is fully open even during autofocus. Therefore I very much doubt that you are seeing depth of field for the selected aperture setting, let alone bokeh (not the same thing!) through the viewfinder. You will have to press the DOF button to get the aperture to stop down manually if you want to see its effect through the viewfinder.
 
OP
raj_55555

raj_55555

Journeyman
Yeah, that is what I meant. Have you tried to see what detail you can extract from the SX30IS Raw images using CHDK? Because I am sure that Matthias Besant shoots in Raw and post processes it to get it just right, rather than depending on standard picture style JPGs on his 550D.
Actually I have been shooting RAW using the sx50hs (it supports RAW by default) and although the results are not astounding (maybe I am doing something wrong, following a lot of tutorials), I do understand what you mean.

The answer to this question depends on context, detail for what, and detail for how much.
...
Coming to the question of detail for how much, here is a photo I took with my 600D from my balcony of a Kingfisher that stopped by my neighbour's garden (distance was about 8 metres):

Kingfisher - Full : Downscaled photo, just to show you how much the bird occupies in the frame at that distance with the 18-55mm lens at full zoom.
Kinfisher - Crop : This is a 100% crop from the full size image
The point here is, which gives more detail? The 100% crop from my 600D with its 3X kit lens, or an equally expensive Bridge camera with a 50X zoom lens.
To be honest I was thinking of stock photography in future; not for a living but for the experience of being on the same level as professionals and see how I grow as a photographer. The idea may seem a bit far fetched to some but I am a dreamer. I have read that the quality checks for the images are pretty stringent and maybe a bridge won't give "that" quality image.

Having taken a lot of images using sx30IS and enough using sx50hs I know that the pic would have been much better using any super zoom bridge. The images were exactly the comparison I needed.

Having said that, you've really earned my respect with your writing skills and that extra effort in explaining the stuff. Do you blog often?
The iphone photoshoot was amazing and a real eye opener.


Food for thought:
* DSLRs and their lenses are heavy, and a multi lens kit heavier still. Do you travel often by flight? Do you plan to hike long distances, particularly uphill, to get your shot?
Another amazing point you brought up. I am really into trekking, in fact planning for Sandakphu later this year and a lighter camera might just help.

So does that mean back to FZ200? Don't know, but I won't trouble you guys with my decision anymore. This has to be my decision.. Thanks Manuel, Sujoy and Pranav. :)
 

sujoyp

Grand Master
how about putting a m4/3 in to the selection mix :D

A EPM1+twin lens kit....its light on baggage and just notch less in quality then DSLR ;)

do check it :)
 
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