Mystery of Zero Resolved
tkin
Back to school!!
ROFL, justice had been delivered.actually, thats my comment, cant you tell
Also one more thing:
If x/0=y, then y*0=x, so multiplying any number with 0 will yield a result having non zero value, also since this is true, 0 must have a sign, so -0 or +0? More I think, more my head hurts.
Liverpool_fan
Sami Hyypiä, LFC legend
Is he really claiming a non-zero values for y/0?
In his website, he also quotes Brahmagupta who claimed 0/0 = 0 in his text. Though x/0=0 (if x!=0) doesn't make much sense...
tkin
Back to school!!
Ofcourse, if you divide a number by another number (both non zero) you get a non zero value, if he proves dividing something by zero is infinity or any other abstract symbol he made up that would be crazy.
tkin
Back to school!!
Umm, lets see, A PRINTING PRESS?
well 0.00...01 I meant that the there are infinite 0s between integer 0 and the decimal 1.
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Liverpool_fan
Sami Hyypiä, LFC legend
I am not sure such a number exists, there can be no fractional representation of such a number.
cute.bandar
Cyborg Agent
I. hate. this. thing. guy. scam . with .a passion.
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I have asked for the book to be taken down off the site:
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MetalheadGautham
AFK
There ARE mathematical ways to handle infinitely small numbers (I still remember slogging my ass off trying to make sense of (h -> 0)) and infinitely large numbers too.
Idea is that when you have a fixed finite known number and are dividing it by any extremely small number, the value is infinity and a product with such a number yields 0 as the answer.
But when you have two numbers that are BOTH infinitely small or BOTH infinitely large and are doing an operation with them, then you need to consider how the numbers originated.
Lemme give an example (for infinity based operations):
Lets summate X from 1 to infinity. The result is infinity but lets call it i0.
Lets summate X from 5 to infinity. The result is infinity but lets call it i1.
Now perform operation 5/i0
The result is ZERO because you are dividing a finite number by infinity.
Now perform operation 5/i1
The result is still ZERO because you are dividing a finite number by infinity.
Now perform operation 5/(i0 - i1)
The result is 0.5 (and not infinity), because i0 - i1 = 1+2+3+4 = 10, which we know because of the way the numbers i0 and i1 originated.
And in differential and integral calculus, we have ways to describe how to handle infinite summations and infinite divisions.
Point I'm trying to tell is, high school mathematics already has ways to deal with zero. There is no "mystery" about it anywhere.
Idea is that when you have a fixed finite known number and are dividing it by any extremely small number, the value is infinity and a product with such a number yields 0 as the answer.
But when you have two numbers that are BOTH infinitely small or BOTH infinitely large and are doing an operation with them, then you need to consider how the numbers originated.
Lemme give an example (for infinity based operations):
Lets summate X from 1 to infinity. The result is infinity but lets call it i0.
Lets summate X from 5 to infinity. The result is infinity but lets call it i1.
Now perform operation 5/i0
The result is ZERO because you are dividing a finite number by infinity.
Now perform operation 5/i1
The result is still ZERO because you are dividing a finite number by infinity.
Now perform operation 5/(i0 - i1)
The result is 0.5 (and not infinity), because i0 - i1 = 1+2+3+4 = 10, which we know because of the way the numbers i0 and i1 originated.
And in differential and integral calculus, we have ways to describe how to handle infinite summations and infinite divisions.
Point I'm trying to tell is, high school mathematics already has ways to deal with zero. There is no "mystery" about it anywhere.
What are the odds that no one in the world, in the entire history of mathematics, has gone through the whole divide-by-zero concept. I bet someone might have already thought about what this guy claims and dismissed it. Only this guy has the ***** to blabber about it.
@Gautham, well explained
Off topic: Your name says MetalHead, yet you have and acoustic guitar in your avatar?
@Gautham, well explained
Off topic: Your name says MetalHead, yet you have and acoustic guitar in your avatar?
mediator
Technomancer
Your fundamentals are weak. When infinity comes into the picture it consumes or absorbs i.e infinite+infinte=infinite, infinite-infinite=infiniteMHG said:
(Note : Same is observed at the speed of light). Thus, "operation 5/(i0 - i1)" is also zero! Similarly, Universe is inifnite. Can you take infinite out of it? If you can visualize the infinite, then you are actually limiting it. Your logic, "i0-i1=10" tells that you are treating infinite as some finite.
Anyways, an interesting book for this kind of topic would be "the Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra
PS : I wish Indians maintain the same spirit of questioning and enquiry that they showed for "Mystery of Zero by Ankur" when it comes to reading books written by westerners.
Stole my words. Completely Agree!
There are many things in the world, that are impossible to visualize. Infinity is one of them.
MetalheadGautham
AFK
lol back then didn't have an electric... should update pic with my electric I guess
Your fundamentals are weak. When infinity comes into the picture it consumes or absorbs i.e infinite+infinte=infinite, infinite-infinite=infinite
(Note : Same is observed at the speed of light). Thus, "operation 5/(i0 - i1)" is also zero! Similarly, Universe is inifnite. Can you take infinite out of it? If you can visualize the infinite, then you are actually limiting it. Your logic, "i0-i1=10" tells that you are treating infinite as some finite.
Anyways, an interesting book for this kind of topic would be "the Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra
PS : I wish Indians maintain the same spirit of questioning and enquiry that they showed for "Mystery of Zero by Ankur" when it comes to reading books written by westerners.
(yeah my fundamentals ARE a bit weak that's why I struggled through maths) but i0-i1 = 10 still stands. I mean think of it as integration (damn I wish bbcode had math fonts).
(Integral a to b) = (integral a to J) + (integral J to b) where J is a number between a and b and the integral is continuous in the interval )a,b) which is a law of integration.
Above relation also gives:
(integral a to J) = (integral a to b) - (integral J to b)
Now in my example replace integration with simple summation, a with 0 and b with infinity and J with 5.
PS: crap man you are forcing me to touch (@1(U1U5 again... h8ed it....
tkin
Back to school!!
That integration is still finite, but you cannot use the above example when you are integrating to infinity, at least that's what I think.lol back then didn't have an electric... should update pic with my electric I guess
(yeah my fundamentals ARE a bit weak that's why I struggled through maths) but i0-i1 = 10 still stands. I mean think of it as integration (damn I wish bbcode had math fonts).
(Integral a to b) = (integral a to J) + (integral J to b) where J is a number between a and b and the integral is continuous in the interval )a,b) which is a law of integration.
Above relation also gives:
(integral a to J) = (integral a to b) - (integral J to b)
Now in my example replace integration with simple summation, a with 0 and b with infinity and J with 5.
PS: crap man you are forcing me to touch (@1(U1U5 again... h8ed it....
MetalheadGautham
AFK
woops didn't see this before...
Well you can't visualize infinity completely. But using a generating function for infinity it IS possible (kinda) to see how it grows. For example, an exponential graph (y = e^x) curves upwards. We don't know where it ends or how far it curves. But we KNOW it curves. Same way (y=x) graph is a straight line cutting origin and at 45 degrees to both X and Y axis. We cannot visualize how far it goes but we know its shape.
Anyway, my point was not about visualizing infinity in the first place. All I did was refuse to simplify some terms till they're in a state where it becomes inevitable.
OK here's a way to understand it:
Imagine a planet where people have infinite lives (or imagine you're a vampire from twilight
).There is alien/vampire X born in 1675 and alien/vampire Y born in 1680. No matter what year you take (even near infinity) they have an age difference of 5 years always
Well... Lets wait for more replies then. I'm sure there are plenty of math pros in this forum.
tkin
Back to school!!
Going by your example lets say after infinite years you want to know their age difference, you do not know their age difference from start, neither do they(forgot), now can you calculate it? As far you and them are concerned both of them had lived for an eternity and you don't know how 'old' they exactly are, so you can no differentiate them.woops didn't see this before...
Well you can't visualize infinity completely. But using a generating function for infinity it IS possible (kinda) to see how it grows. For example, an exponential graph (y = e^x) curves upwards. We don't know where it ends or how far it curves. But we KNOW it curves. Same way (y=x) graph is a straight line cutting origin and at 45 degrees to both X and Y axis. We cannot visualize how far it goes but we know its shape.
Anyway, my point was not about visualizing infinity in the first place. All I did was refuse to simplify some terms till they're in a state where it becomes inevitable.
OK here's a way to understand it:
Imagine a planet where people have infinite lives (or imagine you're a vampire from twilight
There is alien/vampire X born in 1675 and alien/vampire Y born in 1680. No matter what year you take (even near infinity) they have an age difference of 5 years always
Well... Lets wait for more replies then. I'm sure there are plenty of math pros in this forum.
When trying to subtract two numbers(coarse example) that had been integrated over an infinite range, you do not know their limiting values, hence you cannot subtract them.
mediator
Technomancer
@MHG : Mathematical fallacy
For dealing with infinity, you need to have a pretty strong visualization to get some vague idea, but at the same time you cannot visualize infinity.
y=e^x is a theoretical formula. Not everything in the world is based on theoretical formula. Earth seems to be "flat" from a lower frame of awareness or consciousness, but "round" from a higher frame of awareness. Similarly, you can visualize y=e^x till it is within limits. On the graph, if "1cm represents 1 km" (i.e visualization), then y=e^x may look like a straight line. If you put x=infinity, then y becomes infinity. You may still see a curve depending upon your frame of reference, but how sure can you be without the use of formula that it is still a curve? Even with the formula..
y=e, when x=1, i.e y!=x
y=e^2 when x=2 i.e y!=x
y=infinty when x=infinty i.e y becomes equal to x now (?) and the formula breaks from its consistency (?).
You can deduce the formula of the graph, i.e reverse, if you are given the graph within limits. But you cannot when infinity comes into the picture. You cannot know if its a square, circle or a line then.
y -> infinity only means that the variable is "approaching/tends to" infinity. It doesn't mean that it is infinity! Ponder over it and you might become a philosopher. In deep state of meditation (with eyes closed), you may experience that infinite. You cannot know where that blank starts or its depth. Ironically, you will realize that it is also a state of "nothingness" or emptiness! That emptiness may manifest into a thought and that thought into a dream.....well I got carried away
For dealing with infinity, you need to have a pretty strong visualization to get some vague idea, but at the same time you cannot visualize infinity.
y=e^x is a theoretical formula. Not everything in the world is based on theoretical formula. Earth seems to be "flat" from a lower frame of awareness or consciousness, but "round" from a higher frame of awareness. Similarly, you can visualize y=e^x till it is within limits. On the graph, if "1cm represents 1 km" (i.e visualization), then y=e^x may look like a straight line. If you put x=infinity, then y becomes infinity. You may still see a curve depending upon your frame of reference, but how sure can you be without the use of formula that it is still a curve? Even with the formula..
y=e, when x=1, i.e y!=x
y=e^2 when x=2 i.e y!=x
y=infinty when x=infinty i.e y becomes equal to x now (?) and the formula breaks from its consistency (?).
You can deduce the formula of the graph, i.e reverse, if you are given the graph within limits. But you cannot when infinity comes into the picture. You cannot know if its a square, circle or a line then.
y -> infinity only means that the variable is "approaching/tends to" infinity. It doesn't mean that it is infinity! Ponder over it and you might become a philosopher. In deep state of meditation (with eyes closed), you may experience that infinite. You cannot know where that blank starts or its depth. Ironically, you will realize that it is also a state of "nothingness" or emptiness! That emptiness may manifest into a thought and that thought into a dream.....well I got carried away
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