Zeeshan Quireshi
C# Be Sharp !
@din , i don't really understand how it is unethical to provide a browser with your OS(it is infact an integral part of the OS) when the user himself is buying an OS and he knows what browser will be included in it .
Opera files a case against Microsoft
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iMav
The Devil's Advocate
oh its very bad why is it bad its just very bad to bundle anything with ur OS ... next they will say MS should not bundle notepad with Windows there are other text editors - consumers want choice; then they will say MS should not bundle a firewall with the OS - why because there are other firewall makers and it is not ethical; then they will say MS should not bundle any icons with windows there are other icon packs available; then they will say MS should not bundle windows gallery because there are other photo managers; then they will say windows should not have bundled paint in it there are other image editors 
lagey raho din .... im sorry as a consumer i am against any such choices fcuk the choices i want my OS do play music; browse the net; be secure; have a basic image editor & image viewer if u dont want and please use Linux
just as every1 shouts this is linux and not windows this is os x and not windows same way this is windows ... take it or leave it
opera wants publicity and doesnt give a damn about consumers if they really did then they wouldv had opera in ubuntu and not firefox and they would have also sued Apple for safari ... but they want cheap publicity and they know MS is an easy target in front of the EUAM (European Union Against Microsoft)
lagey raho din .... im sorry as a consumer i am against any such choices fcuk the choices i want my OS do play music; browse the net; be secure; have a basic image editor & image viewer if u dont want and please use Linux
just as every1 shouts this is linux and not windows this is os x and not windows same way this is windows ... take it or leave it
opera wants publicity and doesnt give a damn about consumers if they really did then they wouldv had opera in ubuntu and not firefox and they would have also sued Apple for safari ... but they want cheap publicity and they know MS is an easy target in front of the EUAM (European Union Against Microsoft)
din
Tribal Boy
@Zeeshan Quireshi
Thought you already know the history. But it seems you missed United States v. Microsoft details ...
@iMav, The Devil's Advocate
As I mentioned before, MS lawyers (Bill's Advocates) are expert than we think, still they couldn't prove MS is right ! So no point in a fight on consumer point of view. It has nothing to do with end user. Period
Thought you already know the history. But it seems you missed United States v. Microsoft details ...
@iMav, The Devil's Advocate
As I mentioned before, MS lawyers (Bill's Advocates) are expert than we think, still they couldn't prove MS is right ! So no point in a fight on consumer point of view. It has nothing to do with end user. Period
iMav
The Devil's Advocate
it has everything to do with the end user .... if u like to spend hours downloading stupid packages and installing them please use linux
if opera was in this for the end consumer choice then they should have sued Apple for safari which they did not why coz they know "dal nahi galne wali" and they would have even sued canonical for bundling firefox in the cd version but then again they know doing so would result in huge consumer backlash .... suing apple & OSS results in huge backlash but suing MS gets support from Apple & OSS coz its a common enemy and easy target ... pretty much like prakash only throwing tantrums about vista having drm but not saying a word about apple or intel or amd
dual standards & cheap publicity thats it; it has nothing to do with consumer choices and this u know as good as i do Period.
if opera was in this for the end consumer choice then they should have sued Apple for safari which they did not why coz they know "dal nahi galne wali" and they would have even sued canonical for bundling firefox in the cd version but then again they know doing so would result in huge consumer backlash .... suing apple & OSS results in huge backlash but suing MS gets support from Apple & OSS coz its a common enemy and easy target ... pretty much like prakash only throwing tantrums about vista having drm but not saying a word about apple or intel or amd
dual standards & cheap publicity thats it; it has nothing to do with consumer choices
and this u know as good as i do Period.
infra_red_dude
Wire muncher!
Solution -
1) Include shortcuts on desktop:
a) Install Internet Explorer (from media)
b) Install Windows Media Player (from media)
c) Install other browsers (direct them to windows market place, after installing barebones IE, after downloading and setting the default browser remove barebones IE)
d) Install other media players (direct them to windows market place, after installing barebones IE)
Problem solved
2) Yes, as everyone has agreed MS needs to follow the standards and I hope things will change with IE8.
Also someone said: Windows is not Linux. We were trying to tell the same but with the first and last words interchanged!
PS: Sorry guys, been sick!
1) Include shortcuts on desktop:
a) Install Internet Explorer (from media)
b) Install Windows Media Player (from media)
c) Install other browsers (direct them to windows market place, after installing barebones IE, after downloading and setting the default browser remove barebones IE)
d) Install other media players (direct them to windows market place, after installing barebones IE)
Problem solved
2) Yes, as everyone has agreed MS needs to follow the standards and I hope things will change with IE8.
Also someone said: Windows is not Linux. We were trying to tell the same but with the first and last words interchanged!
PS: Sorry guys, been sick!
infra_red_dude
Wire muncher!
^^^ Vista already has too many editions...
naveen_reloaded
!! RecuZant By Birth !!
i still dont get it ... in european country .. why are they soooo concerned with ms ???
even ms released a modified version of thier os ...
wait are they caring wht a ferrari tyres are??? or wht engine material they use??? oir the seat leather ???
its justa product and they are selling it ... wht the helll is the problem..
didnt ubuntu come with firefox... now why shouldnt ie sue them for not telling unbuntu customers that there is also other browser to use???
IF MS DOES ANYTHING THAT WILL BE SUED.... WHT A F`KING WORLD...
even ms released a modified version of thier os ...
wait are they caring wht a ferrari tyres are??? or wht engine material they use??? oir the seat leather ???
its justa product and they are selling it ... wht the helll is the problem..
didnt ubuntu come with firefox... now why shouldnt ie sue them for not telling unbuntu customers that there is also other browser to use???
IF MS DOES ANYTHING THAT WILL BE SUED.... WHT A F`KING WORLD...
The_Devil_Himself
die blizzard die! D3?
simple cos they don't give a damn how big a company is, consumers come first to them.They care about their citizens.It is as simple as it gets.Europe in not India where you are sure to be run over by big fishes.naveen_reloaded said:
They are Sane.
I have lost count how many different versions they have made.
??? sure they do care??man dont you know most good care makers are based in Europe?
If the product doesn't comply with their standards then they won't allow it to be sold.And thats what governments\courts are for--regulating and controlling.
My favourite question.Here are the answers and please cram them before you ask the same question again.
1.Ubuntu and most Linux distros are free!,believe me!
2.Ubuntu users are not idiots and they do know about other browsers too.And there is this utility which people call synaptic through which you can download and install thousands of softwares,all free of cost of course,and there are others browsers to download too.And I am sure if M$ provide a Linux version of IE then ubuntu can consider adding it to their repos.
3.Not all Linux distros come with firefox as default web browser,hell even kubuntu has a different browser iirc.
Agree,if M$ does anything stupid or wrong it will be sued(in saner countries).And I\YOU\WE cannot decide whats wrong or right--there are judges who are much more experienced and knowledgeable to take care of this part.
not only M$ but every big company which has a near monopoly over any market should act responsible and provide room for healthy competition,and competition can never be bad for end consumers i.e. us all.killing and ruthlessly killing competition through unethical ways is not at all appreciated.maintain high standards and caring about consumers go a long way rather that perpetuating their worthless agendas.
iMav
The Devil's Advocate
The_Devil_Himself said:
when it is linux people know about other browsers and when its windows the same "sane" people dont know about other browsersThe_Devil_Himself said:
stupidity in ur own comments if the europeans are so sane then cant they download other browsers
no matter how many different vresions vista has even if u add all windows versions u can comapre with the ten thousand differetn linux distros ... u want to edit vdos - get studio ubuntu; u have changed from windows - try ubuntu or fedeora or suse; ur a intermediate linux user try debain; u want kde try kubuntu; u want gnome try ubuntuThe_Devil_Himself said:
dude if ur talking about versions ook at the the different distros available for linux want eye candy try dream linux try slacware try slax .... now compare this to vista - want for office - business; for home - home premium; want no eye candy - basic; want everything - ultimate ... simple to understand easy to choose .... think before bringing up stupid points ya right safari & apple comply with all standardsThe_Devil_Himself said:
Apple kare toh chamatkar MS kare toh balatkar .... ur saneness my a$$ its easy target MS thereforeThe_Devil_Himself said:
remmber the big bulls eye on MS's a$$ customers ethics standards are all bull **** means to get cheap publicity ...
we cant beat u so we will sue u
blah blah blah blah u want other browsers did MS dis-allow u from installing opera; downloading opera; or using opera or setting opera as default browser .... no it didnt so all the above bull sh!t about healthy competition is rather naiveThe_Devil_Himself said:
now cram all these answers before asking the same question
The_Devil_Himself
die blizzard die! D3?
iMav said:
1.I dint ask any question,I was answering actually.
2.I already know it all boy,afterall every 2nd of your post is like this only.SO you can say I have crammed it so that I can skip your posts without reading them.
anandk
Distinguished Member
"Didn't know 'web standards' were laws which had to be followed; and in any case Windows users have always had the option of using Opera, Firefox or Safari for that matter. Now I wonder if Opera is planning to file a suit against Apple too, for tying its Safari browser to its OS ! Opera, in my opinion is a quality browser; but then, was the move propelled by the fact that it was unable to dent the browser market, esp with Firefox's trot turning to a sprint ?"
Zeeshan Quireshi
C# Be Sharp !
THat's the same question i wanted to ask .
Windows users too can download Other browsers alongside , same as apple and mac , then why only windows , why not the whole industry ?
Secondly , as i pointed earlier the default homepage of opera should then not be opera.com , the user should be given a choice to choose his own homepage rather than set one for him urself .
@The Devil Himself , mate could you answer these questions with un-ambiguous answers ?
Windows users too can download Other browsers alongside , same as apple and mac , then why only windows , why not the whole industry ?
Secondly , as i pointed earlier the default homepage of opera should then not be opera.com , the user should be given a choice to choose his own homepage rather than set one for him urself .
@The Devil Himself , mate could you answer these questions with un-ambiguous answers ?
The_Devil_Himself
die blizzard die! D3?
^^nope,I answer the questions I feel like answering.
Besides I don't know much about apple and macs,I guess jobs has maintained a closed approach right from the beginning.I think it is unethical to do so,and also the fact that apple dint release its OS for all platforms which are very well capable of running it.They want to create an aura of exclusivity to sell their highly priced macs.
My point was just that don't compare M$ and Linux.Linux do provide alternate browsers and there are more browsers to be downloaded in repos directly from synaptic which doesn't require any web browser.
I myself use Firefox and like it better than opera.
Lastly,you cannot claim that people\organizations are suing M$ just for publicity,there are judges and courts to decide.Even here you can sue anyone if you think 'they' are doing something wrong or they are indirectly stopping you from developing.Its kind of a fundamental right.they here means big-wig monopolist companies.
And did ya forget M$ lost most of the cases?
Besides I don't know much about apple and macs,I guess jobs has maintained a closed approach right from the beginning.I think it is unethical to do so,and also the fact that apple dint release its OS for all platforms which are very well capable of running it.They want to create an aura of exclusivity to sell their highly priced macs.
My point was just that don't compare M$ and Linux.Linux do provide alternate browsers and there are more browsers to be downloaded in repos directly from synaptic which doesn't require any web browser.
I myself use Firefox and like it better than opera.
Lastly,you cannot claim that people\organizations are suing M$ just for publicity,there are judges and courts to decide.Even here you can sue anyone if you think 'they' are doing something wrong or they are indirectly stopping you from developing.Its kind of a fundamental right.they here means big-wig monopolist companies.
And did ya forget M$ lost most of the cases?
infra_red_dude
Wire muncher!
I think its not correct to sue only MS for bundling browser. Apple stands a favorite contender. If MS is sued then by every means Apple should be sued too.
Mebbe, as I said, they should create a stripped down IE only for Windows market place and haf it installed all the time. Call it, say, Windows Market Place Explorer. Let it haf the ability to only browse Windows Market Place and download. Users of U3 Flash drives can relate this to U3 Software Browser. This would really solve all these problems.
Secondly, those of you who say that even Linux distros should be sued should understand that the Linux distro makers DO NOT make Firefox! This is the crux of the debate. If people do not comprehend this reason behind the case against MS then there is no use posting here.
And regarding all those different distros, they are there only to help users. A normal Ubuntu user can install and KDE and be comfortable after switching from Windows. He/She can install all the multimedia packages from package manager and make it an AV studio (no need to install pclinux os or ubuntu studio). The only reason they exist is that they haf all the tools pre-installed. Other than that there is no difference. And I think its better if Linux and related things are kept outta this thread. It will only lead to offtopic posts and diversion.
Mebbe, as I said, they should create a stripped down IE only for Windows market place and haf it installed all the time. Call it, say, Windows Market Place Explorer. Let it haf the ability to only browse Windows Market Place and download. Users of U3 Flash drives can relate this to U3 Software Browser. This would really solve all these problems.
Secondly, those of you who say that even Linux distros should be sued should understand that the Linux distro makers DO NOT make Firefox! This is the crux of the debate. If people do not comprehend this reason behind the case against MS then there is no use posting here.
And regarding all those different distros, they are there only to help users. A normal Ubuntu user can install and KDE and be comfortable after switching from Windows. He/She can install all the multimedia packages from package manager and make it an AV studio (no need to install pclinux os or ubuntu studio). The only reason they exist is that they haf all the tools pre-installed. Other than that there is no difference. And I think its better if Linux and related things are kept outta this thread. It will only lead to offtopic posts and diversion.
Personally, while I agree that IE really needs to work on being standard compliant, I am not yet convinced about the first part of the anti-trust case... Heres my view (looking at both business perspective and end user perspective) that they may not be valid...
Argument 1: IE should not be bundled with Windows
Flaw (Business POV): Every (or at least most) OS bundles either its own browser, or another browser... While in the case of Linux, the choices are provided because of OSS philosophy, Apple bundles its own browser Safari with the Mac OS... So, if IE should not be bundled with Windows, similar restrictions should be placed on Apple... Otherwise, the EU ruling will be partial.
Flaw (End User POV): The end user wants a good experience out of the box. Every OS is now aiming for that... If IE is not bundled with Windows, this cannot be achieved.
Solution 1: IE should be bundled with Windows
Solution 2: During installation, Windows should ask user (just like in Linux) for choice of browser. The problem with this solution is that there are currently two or three major browsers other than IE for windows, but in the future, there may be more... It will not be possible to provide all these choices, and this will leave MS wide open for lawsuit by certain browser makers if theirs is not available for installation with Windows while others are. Also, any technical problem with say Opera or Firefox should be the responsibility of the corresponding software company/group... If during installation of Windows, you get a BSOD due to Opera or Firefox installation, who gets the blame? MS is not like Linux and the ignorant user will end up blaming MS for creating the problem.
Argument 2: IE may be bundled with Windows, but there should be an option to remove it.
Flaw (Business POV): Unless the presence of IE hinders the installation of other browsers or reduces the efficiency with which they perform, how the hell does whether IE is present or not affect another browser?
Flaw (End User POV): Same as for business POV...
Solution: Throw the first part of the anti-trust case out the window and concentrate on the second to get standards compliancy in IE. This should not only be forced upon in IE 8, but MS should be forced to provide updates to IE6 and IE7 to make them standards compliant. However, knowing EU's position against MS, I would daresay that the first part also will get another silly ruling... The EU should stop just thinking about business point of view and start thinking how it affects the end user.
Arun
Argument 1: IE should not be bundled with Windows
Flaw (Business POV): Every (or at least most) OS bundles either its own browser, or another browser... While in the case of Linux, the choices are provided because of OSS philosophy, Apple bundles its own browser Safari with the Mac OS... So, if IE should not be bundled with Windows, similar restrictions should be placed on Apple... Otherwise, the EU ruling will be partial.
Flaw (End User POV): The end user wants a good experience out of the box. Every OS is now aiming for that... If IE is not bundled with Windows, this cannot be achieved.
Solution 1: IE should be bundled with Windows
Solution 2: During installation, Windows should ask user (just like in Linux) for choice of browser. The problem with this solution is that there are currently two or three major browsers other than IE for windows, but in the future, there may be more... It will not be possible to provide all these choices, and this will leave MS wide open for lawsuit by certain browser makers if theirs is not available for installation with Windows while others are. Also, any technical problem with say Opera or Firefox should be the responsibility of the corresponding software company/group... If during installation of Windows, you get a BSOD due to Opera or Firefox installation, who gets the blame? MS is not like Linux and the ignorant user will end up blaming MS for creating the problem.
Argument 2: IE may be bundled with Windows, but there should be an option to remove it.
Flaw (Business POV): Unless the presence of IE hinders the installation of other browsers or reduces the efficiency with which they perform, how the hell does whether IE is present or not affect another browser?
Flaw (End User POV): Same as for business POV...
Solution: Throw the first part of the anti-trust case out the window and concentrate on the second to get standards compliancy in IE. This should not only be forced upon in IE 8, but MS should be forced to provide updates to IE6 and IE7 to make them standards compliant. However, knowing EU's position against MS, I would daresay that the first part also will get another silly ruling... The EU should stop just thinking about business point of view and start thinking how it affects the end user.
Arun
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