Opera files a case against Microsoft

[infra_red_dude]

^^^ I guess implementing the first part shouldn't be a problem with the solution I posted. It will avoid any future lawsuits against MS and MS can live with peace of mind, at least in this case

 

[Zeeshan Quireshi]

My point was just that don't compare M$ and Linux.Linux do provide alternate browsers and there are more browsers to be downloaded in repos directly from synaptic which doesn't require any web browser.

But the fact is that most linux distros do bundle a browser with them .

Also , ever heard of windows marketplace , you can install Firefox or any other browser from there without opening IE .

 

[The_Devil_Himself]

thats why I dont want to answer.You guys will simply wont understand.You guys turn it into Linux vs. M$.
Why don't you get that Linux distros are not commercial products?Even you can make distro with choicest of softwares you like and distribute it.

And are you sure about Windows market place providing firefox?I seriously doubt it.

 

[Zeeshan Quireshi]

Doesn't matter is software is commercial or non-commercial , the fact is that it is bundling a browser , as said by you is unethical and is killing competition .

And i'm not turning it into a Linux vs MS debate , i was simply taking an example of an alternate OS other than windows .

 

[sakumar79]

@The_Devil_Himself, Here is the link in Windows Market place for Firefox - *www.windowsmarketplace.com/details.aspx?view=info&itemid=2847739 and for Opera - *www.windowsmarketplace.com/details.aspx?view=info&itemid=2846035

However, what is strange that it is located under
All Products> Utilities> Updates & Patches instead of All Products> Communication & Internet> Browsers which is where I would look for it... However, it did come up on search.

Arun

 

[gxsaurav]

Why don't you get that Linux distros are not commercial products?

Sorry, Come again? What is XenderOS & Lispire then?

And are you sure about Windows market place providing firefox?I seriously doubt it.

Firefox on Windows Market place

 

[The_Devil_Himself]

^^did ya read my earlier posts?I have mentioned everywhere 'most distros are free\non-commercial" but I got fed up telling the same thing again and again.

And yea thanks for the link,nice to see this.

 

[iMav]

if a product is non-commercial it has the right to bundle what ever it wants what a logic devil

 

[Hitboxx]

Micro$oft responds to Opera..

 

[moshel]

hey guys u knw wat...this wud actually create a market for "Windows Accessories".......

so it wud be like...
1. u purchase windows (no browser, email client, messenger, search options, media player, file compressors, no themes..etc)..u only get the basic gui.

2. u select ur browser
a. IE 10.1
b. opera
c. firefox.
d. etc etc.

select media player
a. WMP 13
b. Itunes
c. Real Media
d. vlc media player.
e. etc etc.

and so on....anyone wanna join in on my idea and make a case against microsoft in EU....there are high expenses involved in the beginning...but once we win the case we will earn $$$MOOOLLLLLAAAAAHHHH$$$$$$$


well jokes apart....
i love opera and wud prefer it anyday over IE...but this is really ridiculous...i think opera felt maybe as eu is against MS$ they will win the case....

 

[Indyan]

Opera Soft Explains itself.

 

[Hitboxx]

Opera Soft Explains itself.

Thanks.

Bundling in itself is not a problem, but it becomes a problem when a dominant player in the market uses bundling in combination with other tactics to prevent others from competing in the market.

Please note that Safari and Firefox are very good at standards compliance. If they didn't have to deal with MSIE compatibility, they (and Opera) could have spent even more time on improving their standards support.

 

[iMav]

why not add a notepad; a image viewer; an address book; a sound recorder; a messenger to ur list maybe u can even add cursors; icons; fonts; search; mail client; paint; task scheduler ....

and what do mean by "create a market" doesnt it still exist search download.com or anyother download site u will find more applications for windows than any other OS at the same time u will find more such download sites catering to windows than other OSs .... if im not wrong there must be what thousands of applications for windows as compared 300 for linux and 4-5 for OS X

 

[Quiz_Master]

Suppose MS provides Vista without any browser, how will u download Opera then *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif
[/IMG]

I will just get it from any Digit DVD I have.. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif

I am not sure what Opera prople thinking while they are doing this.

Opera is way great then IE7 (I actually used IE7 for 10 minutes... )

Someone said that IE will improve when IE8 will release....
haha

What will Opera developers do until IE8 releases... sleep??
If IE8 will go 10 KMs ahead from current status... Opera will go 100 KMs.

 

[infra_red_dude]

Thanks for link Pallab

That was really a nice read. All those who are saying:
How do I download a browser with a default one or Why isn't Apple being sued for bundling Safari or Ubuntu for Firefox etc. should read the link posted above. The root cause of the problem is the second point: Not adhereing to web standards!

 

[iMav]

and all those who are telling us to read that piece of diplomatic crap should read the comments given by other users

absolute bull crap ... opera has no problem telling MS to adhere to standards they follow but have a problem following standards IE adhers to firefox works well every1 on that board has said but no opera has a problem and they are not saying what they want whether its a case against IE not following their standards or is it IE's dominance ....and what a stupidly cheeky statement .... that if IE adheres to the standards they follow and still is bundled with Windows it wont be the most used browser

i read it to understand as to what they were objecting to and clearly says that we cant beat u so we we will sue u .... but yeah its diplomatically said so that they get public support which they need and is the resaon why firefox or safari are perfectly alright with them

if there was a case of standards why wouldnt safari (apple) or mozilla say this before and file a case saying that IE does not follow standards ...

IE should follow the standards they follow but they are God sent and shouldnt follow standards set and used by others

 

[gxsaurav]

The root cause of the problem is the second point: Not adhereing to web standards!

This we have agreed to, how about Opera waiting for IE 8? MS has already made it clear that IE 8 will be IE 7 + Integrated download manager + Expression Web engine which is 100% standard complient.

Or is it that Opera is just scared that no one will use opera once IE 8 is out...

I mean comon, Opera also has a monopoly on mobile phone browser market, Webkit based browsers are not suing Opera for that.

 

[Maroons]

I am having problems deciphering iMav's post due to lack of punctuation and such, but I'll give it a shot. Apologies for any misunderstandings.

opera has no problem telling MS to adhere to standards they follow but have a problem following standards IE adhers to

IE's proprietary technologies are not standards.

firefox works well every1 on that board has said

There are still many sites that require IE, and no other browsers will work.

whether its a case against IE not following their standards or is it IE's dominance ....

It is not "their" standards. The standards people are referring to are actually standards Microsoft has participated in making. Yet they don't follow them.

and what a stupidly cheeky statement .... that if IE adheres to the standards they follow and still is bundled with Windows it wont be the most used browser

Where does it say that?

i read it to understand as to what they were objecting to and clearly says that we cant beat u so we we will sue u

It is not a lawsuit. And no, you cannot "beat" IE because of Microsoft's anti-competitive practices. This is not down to an inability by Opera or other browsers to beat IE when on equal terms, but the terms are not equal at all.

but yeah its diplomatically said so that they get public support which they need and is the resaon why firefox or safari are perfectly alright with them

The reason Firefox and Safari are perfectly alright is that they are not impeding competition, and they are standards compliant.

MS has already made it clear that IE 8 will be IE 7 + Integrated download manager + Expression Web engine which is 100% standard complient.

Microsoft has promised the world in the past. It is clear, after more than a decade, that force is necessary to stop Microsoft from engaging in anti-competitive practices. Do you really want to take a chance that a company which is well know for doing dishonest things will suddenly improve?

Or is it that Opera is just scared that no one will use opera once IE 8 is out...

Unless IE8 is exactly like Opera, why would someone who prefers Opera switch to IE? If IE8 is standards compliant, why would that alone make people switch from Opera if they prefer Opera's features?

I mean comon, Opera also has a monopoly on mobile phone browser market, Webkit based browsers are not suing Opera for that.

Opera does not have a monopoly. There is competition in the mobile (browser) market. This is addressed in the Q&A, by the way:

"Q: But Opera is bundled on various devices. Doesn't that make Opera Software a hypocrite?

A: Bundling software in itself is not the problem. The problem with Internet Explorer is that Microsoft has used its strong position in the market to stifle competition."

 

[iMav]

well im really sorry, punctuations are something i havent got used to on the keyboard, so 1 needs to bare with that

however the standards issue as said earlier IE 8 will follow all standards yet the standards issue being raised as the major reason as to why IE is bad and leads to improper competition, so really dont find that concern to be 1 as Firefox or Safari havnt had an issue with it, all of a sudden Opera rises from sleep when MS has announced that IE 8 will follow "the standards"

secondly

Where does it say that?

Microsoft would be forced to adhere to standards, and at the same time they would not be as well equipped to repeat their actions in the future because their browser would no longer be as dominant.

read boy read

firefox has been fighting on these so called un-equal terms yet has managed to clinch itself a position in almost every Linux distro so find no reason that these un-equal terms are so un-equal when it comes to acceptance of a browser and its ability to display pages but yet opera wants to sue MS coz it cant beat firefox and suing canonical for bundling firefox would result in major consumer backlash and they will loose PR but suing MS in front of the EUAM well thats a different public scenario altogether aint it

and im sorry for not using punctuations not sued to them and find it difficult but im working on it

and as far as that comment by opera with regards to stifling compettion is concerned ... firefox and safari have acceptance in the market so much so that el jobso decided to come up with a windows version ofthe browser which clearly indicates that there is room for competition but the cheap publicity hunry pera decided to sueMS .... why didnt apple sue MS when they came out with safari forwindows

 

[Maroons]

IE 8 will follow all standards yet the standards issue being raised as the major reason as to why IE is bad and leads to improper competition

IE8 will not follow all standards. It may improve somewhat, but Microsoft's history shows that they are all talk and no action in these cases.

Still, it doesn't matter if we think IE8 might do things right. The fact is that Microsoft is doing bad things right now, and they should be forced to stop being anti-competitive. By doing this, we will be absolutely sure that IE8 will be standards compliant, and will not just have to rely on a promise by a commpany which is known to lie.

Firefox or Safari havnt had an issue with it

They have. Many sites block these browsers too.

all of a sudden Opera rises from sleep when MS has announced that IE 8 will follow "the standards"

No. The reason Opera does this now is that right now an investigation is already underway in the EU.

firefox has been fighting on these so called un-equal terms yet has managed to clinch itself a position in almost every Linux distro

IE is not available for Linux. And besides, even after a decade and lots of money spent on trying to win over IE, IE still has a market share of more than 80% globally. This would not be the case if IE actually had to compete on equal terms as everyone else!

opera wants to sue MS coz it cant beat firefox and suing canonical for bundling firefox would result in major consumer backlash

This comment shows me that you don't understand what this case is all about.

1: This is not a lawsuit.
2: Canonical is not a monopolist, and neither is Firefox.
3: Firefox is actually standards compliant.

Plainly put, "suing" Firefox or anyone else was never an option, because only Microsoft is being anti-competitive due to its domination of the desktop market.

and as far as that comment by opera with regards to stifling compettion is concerned ... firefox and safari have acceptance in the market

But only limited such, and only after over a decade and billions spent on the whole thing. Again, if the competing terms had been equal, Firefox would have had a much greater market share and would have had to spend a lot less money to achieve that.

And even after all this time, IE still has more than 80% market share globally.

The reason Safari is growing is because Mac has gotten slightly more popular, but not enough to become a real threat to Microsoft's dominance.

so much so that el jobso decided to come up with a windows version ofthe browser which clearly indicates that there is room for competition

The reason Safari was ported to Windows was to make sure people could develop for the iPhone.

but the cheap publicity hunry pera decided to sueMS .... why didnt apple sue MS when they came out with safari forwindows

Again, it is not a lawsuit, and it is not a publicity stunt either. It is an antitrust complaint which actually benefits everyone, including Apple and Mozilla. And normal users.