Opera files a case against Microsoft

[NucleusKore]

@NucleusKore Answer- Biased EU

Oh yes a biased continent, so much for the numbers. Don't forget the problems they had in the US.

 

[narangz]

I still didn't get it. If IE is not there, why people can't spend 10 or 15 mins to install another browser from a CD ? Whats wrong in that ? When I was on dial-up, most softwares I used were from magazine CDs, whats so bad about it ? ?

FTP may be tough, but why not an alternattive browser ? ? Oce you get browser, get a download manager from CD or internet, once you have these two, why the address etc, as everything can be accessed through that browser.

I still didn't get the point in - We need IE at any cost for downloading / browsing anything over internet !

If I pay, say 5000 bucks, and I still can't access internet without finding those mag CDs I will not be satisfied. MS can't bundle 3rd party browser because of support issues. The have to provide a browser.

In any case IE7 is good browser. I understand that they should follow W3C guidelines in coding. On the other hand I also use Opera. Infact I use both IE7 & Opera.

 

[din]

Dude, get real, the whole GUI of Linux is a rip of Windows & Mac OS.

WOW, I think I didn't waste time tonight by going through the thread !! This is an excellent information. Thank you man ! But I think you said only part of the truth Do not tell those lin geeks, I will tell you a secret. Only myself and goobi know that.

[secret]
The whole linux and mac OS are rip-off from windows !!! They were in a rush and forgot to replace even the word - Windows - from many places. You can see 'Windows manager' etc at many places ! I will be sending an email to Billji regarding this and I am sure he wil ltake care of it in court
[/secret]

 

[narangz]

Oh yes a biased continent, so much for the numbers. Don't forget the problems they had in the US.

Tell me then why no anti-trust suites against Apple? Aren't they bundling applications with OS X?

 

[gxsaurav]

In a shell, IT IS POSSIBLE
*www.connectedhomemag.com/Networking/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=25034

So, you want me to pay Rs 5000 for my OS, & then read the manual in which this process is written

Windows XP's FTP service installs as part of Microsoft Internet Information Services (IIS) 5.1; the FTP host is available only in XP Professional Edition, and the command-line client is available in both XP Pro and XP Home Edition. To reach the FTP client, click Start, then click Run. Type
ftpin the resulting dialog box.
A useful command-line function available through the Windows FTP client lets you write scripts that execute FTP file transfers and automate FTP tasks. The command
ftp -?returns the line
ftp [-v] [-d] [-i] [-n] [-g] [-s:filename] [-a] [-w:windowsize] [-A] [host]where -v suppresses the display of remote server responses, -d enables debugging, -i turns off interactive prompting during multiple file transfers, -n suppresses auto logon upon initial connection, -g disables filename globbing (see information about the Glob command below), -s:filename specifies a text file containing FTP commands (the commands will automatically run after FTP starts), -a lets you use any local interface when binding data connection, -w:windowsize overrides the default transfer buffer size of 4096, -A enables anonymous logon, and host specifies the host name or IP address of the remote host to which you're connecting.
Those command parameters let you determine how you will connect to the FTP service on another computer. In most cases, you would use the FTP client interactively and could simply enter the following command:
ftp host_name.domain_name.comFor example, the following line would connect you to the FTP server ftp.chernicoff.com:
ftp ftp.chernicoff.comThe host would prompt you for a username and password. Most publicly available FTP servers support anonymous FTP, which lets you enter anonymous as your username and anything (usually your email address) as your password. You need to enter something at the password prompt; a blank password won't work. After you enter the interactive FTP console, 42 FTP commands are available to help you manage and use your FTP session. By typing
?at the FTP prompt, you'll get a list of the available commands. To get help with any command, use the syntax
? [command]For example, the command
? dirwill display help for the Dir command.
The following is a list of available FTP commands and how you can use them.

• !-The ! command causes the FTP console to shell to an XP command console. If you need to execute a different XP command-processor command in the same window as your FTP session without disconnecting the FTP session, use this command.
• ?-The ? command returns Help information for a selected FTP command.
• Append-The Append command works the same way as the command-prompt Append command: It lets you combine two files. In FTP, however, Append lets you combine a local file with a file on the FTP server. The syntax is
  append local_file [remote_file]
• Ascii-The FTP service isn't very bright. It knows that it can transfer files, but it doesn't understand the difference between simple text files and binary files. By default, it assumes it's transferring simple text (i.e., ASCII) files; if you transfer a binary file (e.g., programs, proprietary document formats, DLLs) in that mode, the files arrive at their destination in an unusable format. Using the Ascii command tells the FTP program that you plan to transfer a text file. The command requires no parameters.
• Bell-The Bell command tells the FTP program to play a sound when a file transfer finishes. Each time you type
  bellthe command changes the state from on to off or vice versa. The command requires no parameters, and the default state is off.
• Binary-The Binary command sets the file-transfer mode to binary and allows the successful transfer of file types other than simple text. Entering this command sets up the program for binary file transfers. Binary requires no parameters.
• Bye-The Bye command disconnects the FTP session and exits the FTP console. The command requires no parameters
• Cd-The Cd command changes the working directory on the remote computer. The syntax is the same as the Cd command at the local command prompt. The only parameter is the name of the directory you want to switch to (e.g., cd \dirname).
• Close-The Close command shuts down the current FTP connection but leaves you in the FTP console. The command requires no parameters.
• Debug-Toggling Debug mode on means that all the details about commands you send to an FTP host will display on the client console. This information is useful if your connection is having problems; you'll be able to see where in the sequence of events a connection is failing. Entering the Debug command toggles the information on or off. The default state is off, and the command requires no parameters.
• Delete-Delete lets you delete files on the remote computer (if the account that you used to log on to the FTP server has sufficient privileges). The syntax is
  delete remote__file_name
• Dir-Dir is the directory command for the remote computer and displays a list of files and subdirectories that reside on the remote computer. Two parameters are available; you can specify a subdirectory to enumerate, and you can specify a filename to write the directory information to on the local machine. The command
  dir \subdir1 remote.txtenumerates the subdirectory subdir1 and writes the list of its contents to the file remote.txt on your local machine, in the directory from which you launched the FTP client.
• Disconnect-The Disconnect command provides the same function as the Close command. It disconnects the FTP session and returns the console to the FTP prompt.
• Get-The Get command copies a file from the remote computer to the local computer. It also lets you rename the file when the file is being copied. The command
  get file_namesimply transfers the file to the local directory. The command
  get file_name local_file_namelets you rename the local copy of the file. Remember to set the file-transfer mode to the appropriate mode by using the Ascii or Binary command before initiating the file transfer.
• Glob-The Glob command lets you use wildcards with other FTP file-management commands. Glob supports the use of the asterisk and question mark in filenames the same way they work in any command-line action. Glob is enabled by default. Entering the command will toggle the function off or on, depending on the current state. The command requires no parameters.
• Hash-The Hash command causes the console to print a pound sign (#) for every 2KB of data that transmits during uploading or downloading. By default, the hash function is off.
• Help-The Help command displays a list of available commands.

Sorry, Windows is not Linux. Windows is not only for geeks..

Hey, I just have the kernel, where do i read this tutorial from?

 

[din]

OK, I agree, windows need html engine and multimedia engine to work as an OS. Does it need IE specifically and WMP specifically for working ? ?

Nope

Great. Thats what the court also decided ! Now you got the point. MS Windows does not need IE specifically or WMP specifically, still they bundled it. Why ? Simple, they wanted to kill competition which is against the laws !!

 

[gxsaurav]

Great. Thats what the court also decided ! Now you got the point. MS Windows does not need IE specifically or WMP specifically, still they bundled it. Why ? Simple, they wanted to kill competition which is against the laws !!

Maruti also bundled there own car seat covers with Alto, but they don't need Maruti made seat cover to work. Still maruti provides these out of the box so that customar can later on replace them with whatever they want.

I give up, last 2 pages I have mentioned the same thing again & again & Lingeeks don't understand it. They want Windows to work like Linux which is not possible.

If EU wants MS to give the user an option to remove IE engine & Directshow engine from Windows compleately, then do give us a replacement DirectShow engine plz...oh! wait...nothing will work as they all rely on DirectShow.

 

[din]

Because it is EU & we all know how biased is EU towards MS.

LOL, GX sir, you are a very senior member here ! You remember the Netscape - IE issue I hope. Was that EU ? You know which court gave order to split MS into two that was EU ? You know there are a lot of court orders against MS, they are not all EU. A lot of coutries made verdicts against MS in various issues, that does not mean that those are all biased. Every country has its own laws. In India you just can't marry at the age of 15. Now if someone whos just 15 say - the court is very partial and support my parents who stand against my marriage - how it wil llook like ?

Its business, when we do it in US, obey US rules, when it is Europe, obey their ruls, when its in India obey .. err, try to bribe and try to make people silent by $$$$$$$$

 

[QwertyManiac]

You can't expect newbies to know about FTP & how it works. They know how to launch a browser and download stuff.

Meh. Right, you said it.

 

[Garbage]

WOW, I think I didn't waste time tonight by going through the thread !!

Me also think same !! *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/62.gif

@gx_saurav...
SORRY dude.. I lost... Peace now...
(If you have some spare time, then please read FTP Guide.)

Maruti also bundled there own car seat covers with Alto, but they don't need Maruti made seat cover to work. Still maruti provides these out of the box so that customar can later on replace them with whatever they want.

I can replace my car's seat covers completely. Can I remove IE COMPLETELY from Windows and REPLACE with SOMETHING ELSE ??

 

[narangz]

Meh. Right, you said it.

*www.harshj.com/2007/12/13/opera-enters-the-anti-microsoft-list/

 

[RCuber]

Chapter 1
Sue M$ for including WMP .. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/19.gif

Result ... M$ removes WMP from European version of windows.. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/4.gif

whats next..

Now people start to criticize M$ for not including a default media player *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/35.gif

Chapter 2
Sue M$ cause they are giving out default Browser.. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/19.gif

( if successful )M$ removes IE from European version of windows.. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/4.gif

whats next ..

Now people start to criticize M$ for not including a default browser *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/35.gif

I personally hate IE, but this doesnot mean that M$ should not give their own product with their own OS.. *gigasmilies.googlepages.com/68.gif*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/106.gif

 

[narangz]

Rightly said, Charan!

 

[din]

@Charan

It is not about an end user. He may be happy having IE with Windows or having WMP. But when we are doing business, we have to follow certain rules and these rules are not in favor of any or not blindly against any.

As you very well know, MS bundled IE with windows not coz they love the customers a lot or the OS will not work witjout IE as it is (even GX agreed that). That was a trick to kill competition which Netscape was bringing up. Same with WMP. So end user may criticise MS but they have to follow the rules coz every company should get market and not just MS.

 

[Zeeshan Quireshi]

well when a User is buying Windows he is consciously , buying a Product from a company and he expects it to include all the basic tools .

So how can u say it is killing competition because a company will sell it's own products and will try to give the best offer to the user .

Somewhere down the line we might see Sony suing Nokia because it is bundling their OS along with their latest N Series phone . According to sony , nokia is only selling the phone to the consumer not the OS and thus thus the consumer should be given the optino to choose which OS he wants to install on his mobile .

I hope you get it this time round .

 

[din]

@Zeeshan Quireshi

I guess you are a developer and you know things even better !

Just for example, suppose you are making a media player for your friends in C# (just an example, I do not know if thats possible lol). You really love your friends and want to give them the best. MS does not allow you to put certain add on in your app for some reason - adding which would have made your app excellent. MS business law or restriction says you can't.

Now, will you go for adding that add-on in your app ignoring MS order as you love your friends ? Or you give them the app without the add-on ?

It is as simple as such.

When issues like bundling or un-ethical practices or killing competition comes, think at business point of view and not at end user point of view. Think of other comapnies not just MS and that wil make things very simple ! Coz every company should get the same market openings and there is no justification for killing competition by dirty tricks. Else it will be extreme monopoly and that will eventully turn very bad to end users as well.

 

[chesss]

Haavard's blog has a lil FAQ to answer all your questions.

 

[praka123]

I remember how netscape disappeared long back In 2000,anti-trust in us,now with EU,same time try to destroy Linux and OSS(SCO FUDs,patent fuds).whaow!M$ is such a nice company for a fan boy.

In Linux,i can remove whatever package i want,even the package management for that reason(dpkg!),not to say that every browser can be completely removed without a trace!

Now does dear Microwsoft allows this in their windsows?NO!they just bundled ie to kill netscape at that time.IE or outlook or wmp etc CANNOT BE REMOVED IN NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES,even when hacked to remove also these share components are there!

I know that mac os x have default safari browser which is based on kde's khtml(konqueror) forked webkit engine.now in mac also afaik it can be achievable to remove safari and webkit.does windows allows that?no,a big NO!.

Just take ur own time to settle down with the facts.

 

[gxsaurav]

LOL, GX sir, you are a very senior member here ! You remember the Netscape - IE issue I hope.

Microsoft Made the IE Engine & integrated it in Windows. Nothing wrong it in it.

They made it an integral part of OS, nothing wrong in it. You also cannot compleately remove the webkit engine from Mac OS X & KHTML engine from KDE, so why aren't u *****ing about that.

Can I remove IE COMPLETELY from Windows and REPLACE with SOMETHING ELSE ??

No, why would u need to? If you are refereing to IE engine then sorry, if you are refering to IE 7 software, then in Vista yes u can remove & replace with Opera Firefox.

As you very well know, MS bundled IE with windows not coz they love the customers a lot or the OS will not work witjout IE

The OS will work without IE software, but cannot work without IE Engine. MS bundled IE with Windows so that customar can connect & browse the net out of the box, & this better out of the box experience attracts customars towards Windows product.

Just for example, suppose you are making a media player for your friends in C# (just an example, I do not know if thats possible lol). You really love your friends and want to give them the best. MS does not allow you to put certain add on in your app for some reason - adding which would have made your app excellent. MS business law or restriction says you can't.

Now, will you go for adding that add-on in your app ignoring MS order as you love your friends ? Or you give them the app without the add-on ?

Situation like this does not & cannot exist.

When issues like bundling or un-ethical practices or killing competition comes, think at business point of view and not at end user point of view. Think of other comapnies not just MS and that wil make things very simple ! Coz every company should get the same market openings

Those who want Opera or Firefox, can easily install them from Microsoft's own Market Place, what else do u want. It cannot come preinstalled in Windows. Period.

In Linux,i can remove whatever package i want,even the package management for that reason(dpkg!),not to say that every browser can be completely removed without a trace!

I know that mac os x have default safari browser which is based on kde's khtml(konqueror) forked webkit engine.now in mac also afaik it can be achievable to remove safari and webkit.does windows allows that?no,a big NO

Browser = Frontend + Backend HTML engine. You can remove the frontend, but not the backend in both Windows & Linux.

In Mac OS X, you can remove the Safari browser but not the Webkit engine.

 

[din]

Microsoft Made the IE Engine & integrated it in Windows. Nothing wrong it in it.

They made it an integral part of OS, nothing wrong in it.

Sir, it is not wrong - for you !! Thats is what MS also thought first. They thought doing un-ethical business is not at all wrong. But later they realised it is wrong ! And court found it is wrong and the verdict was against MS - Simple !

When issues like bundling or un-ethical practices or killing competition comes, think at business point of view and not at end user point of view. Think of other comapnies not just MS and that wil make things very simple ! Coz every company should get the same market openings

Those who want Opera or Firefox, can easily install them from Microsoft's own Market Place, what else do u want. It cannot come preinstalled in Windows. Period.

I am not sure whether you didn't really understand what I meant or it is iMavism (pretending ...)

Anyway, what I meant is, bundling IE may be good at consumer point of view. But when you are into business, it is wrong. Nothing to do with MS market place or any other markets in India lol.

In Mac OS X, you can remove the Safari browser but not the Webkit engine.

Exactly, So browser front end part is gone right ? But in Windows, at a normal person point of view removing IE is impossible !

As you very well know, MS bundled IE with windows not coz they love the customers a lot or the OS will not work witjout IE

The OS will work without IE software, but cannot work without IE Engine.

Now we both are talking the same thing

Also another point.

World is not going to end in a day if MS stop shipping IE as browser with Windows ! Just as an example, when you buy some hardware, they give driver in CD, some might be there in Windows and some might not be. If MS stop giving IE, PC sellers will start giving browsers in CDs, not a big deal.

As I mentioned, I still didn't get the answer. Why installing a browser or any other sotware from a CD - takes 10 or 15 mins - is a really bad idea ? ?