Linux could have been bigger than Windows today

[mystic_hunter]

encapsulate

it_waaznt_me wrote:
Cult you say .. Tell me .. Do we buy software to run our hardware or we buy hardware to get our software run ..?

Open source doesnt mean that u cannot sell ur software and always remember "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."

 

[akshar]

You are right.

Aim of Linux should not be to beat Windows or microsoft. Aim of Linux should be to create it's own standards as far as OS are concerned. Secondly there should exist atleast one giant company which can put in lots of money for the development of Linux and to take it to the mass.

Unless and untill Linux gets the level of user friendliness that windows has gained it is very difficult for it to reach the mass. You get linux for free thts true but what about the support that is specifically created for ordinary users?

Visit microsoft.com and visit any site on Linux. You will find the difference. The difference between Linux and Microsoft (one is OS other is a company) is that Microsoft is ever ready to define the future where as Linux accepts the challenges as they come to it.

 

[mystic_hunter]

hey dude rise up to the linux level and see....how much more u can learn....y should linux come down to our levels?

 

[aceman]

Each and every bit of wht u wrote is correct....jsut eliminate these lines
That’s the reason Linux movement is very slow, even though its gaining popularity

It all depends on what U want, the ablity to write a differnt linux is One of its selling points........for example we wanted a linux only for storage applications like NAS,SAN,ISCSI....etc ( running on a power G5) ....since nothing in the open market was able to match our spec we wrote our own Linux OS due to be released in a few months and here in lies the power of Linux, not everybody wants a desktop OS, what we want is OS which can be tailored to ones needs and thus many companies (including ours) will develop different versions to suit our own needs.
also do note that Linux manynot have much of a penetration in the X86 segment , but look at the embedded systems sector , Embedded linux and RTLINUX is some of the most popular OS for the embedded sector and in Embedded N/W domain like ours the only OS we run is Linux ( WIN CE Sucks,actually it Sucks a lot)...............thus popularity is a relative term.
Linux may or maynot be popular in the desktop segment but look at other cores like ARM,PPC...etc Windows will be no where to be seen.

 

[it_waaznt_me]

Open source doesnt mean that u cannot sell ur software and always remember "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."

I dont see what you meant by that .. I never say anything about Open Source's nature or something ..

With akshar's reference, I would like to remind that Linux was written in protest of commercial nature of Unix and not Windows .. It was a sign of liberation for programmers from commercial installations of Unix .. They never had any idea that it will extend to desktops .. You should read the early newsgroups postings ...
This anti Microsoft feeling come only when Linux started to touch the desktop boundaries .. The only competitor .. Windows .. So how to down them .. ? Just aim at their "inethical policies and ethics" ...

hey dude rise up to the linux level and see....how much more u can learn....y should linux come down to our levels?

Thats the sole reason that Linux is still considered a "geek's stuff" .. Normal home desktop users do not know what Linux is and hence find it not interesting .. I remember in software engineering the first thing we were taught is "Programmers are not users and Users are not programmers" .. If a user wont find a program easy to use, he will dump it .. As easy as that ..

 

[it_waaznt_me]

Anyway Linux is here to stay AND Linux users are increasing only.Billi's OS most of u r using r pirated isn't?he made us to think hardware made are for M$ only.internal modems are winmodems,it needs software flow control,while external modems are the REAL modems.

Yes .. Linux is here to stay .. But if it is here to stay, it will have to make *many* changes .. I dont understand your logic about winmodems being software flow controlled .. So dont they perform their job ..? Mind you .. I've been using this modem for six whole years and it does give great performance to me .. I do not see any logic in buying hardware only because the software doesnt support my existing one ... If it was for a real performance gain, I'dve considered but there is none ... so out of question ..

Infact windows OS is a HAck of OS/2 ?
*www.os2bbs.com/os2news/OS2Warp.html

Hehe .. Read the page thoroughly ..

i red somwhere only 2% of linus's code are there in today's Linux kernel.
Bill gates wants a monopoly OS.his ethics are to eliminate anything on the way of his OS.Linux is doing nothing against his OS.He and his company are responsible for putting patent warfare on Linux.
most of these guys are born and broughtup with "pirated" windows OS.that's why they are single sided.
thinging only single sided.

You read it just here .. On the first post ..

Now come to ethics .. I have argued this *many* times .. Tell me .. If you were the head of Microsoft, what wouldve you not done to make it to the top ..? You wouldve done everything to compete .. This is business .. You want your car to look better than anyone else . .. I dont see any wrong in that ..

I am *not* single sided .. I do have an installation of Suse on my system .. But I dont go and brag saying that I use Suse because I hate Microsoft and their ethics .. I use Suse because I like learning new things ..

 

[sba]

Normal home desktop users do not know what Linux is and hence find it not interesting .. .. If a user wont find a program easy to use, he will dump it .. As easy as that ..

Normal home desktop users do not know what Linux is...not because it has major flaws with its usability but because they have never been a Linux desktop. An average user would at the most need web surfing, write a few documents, listen to his/her MP3s and chat with a few friends. Now let me give you a situation where you are given a PC with Ubuntu/SUSE pre-installed with all such things working, would they not adapt? Of course they will. Will the user find typing in OpenOffice difficult then Word or will he/she find Amarok/Rhythmbox sound any different then WMP? This is not the case. The average joe doesn't want to migrate not because Linux is tough but because that is how he has been living for so long. He is simply too lazy to budge. Here is a message from a user on LUGD mailing list

in one sense, it is easier for people to migrate if they are given no
choice (i know it sounds autocratic, but that's what worked for us. We
did not want pirated software for legal reasons, and we couldn't afford
licensed copies. now, the general users don't even ask for windows)

^ that statement is true for everyone. today Windows is stuck into a user's throat with a long stick and then told to him that this is what you have to live with. people go out and buy an assembeled system and they are given no choice but Windows. If same thing starts to happen with Linux then I can give you a 100% guarantee that no user would ever complaint about Linux not being user friendly. That is just not true...

 

[it_waaznt_me]

An average user would at the most need web surfing, write a few documents, listen to his/her MP3s and chat with a few friends

Thats my whole point .. For a normal desktop computer, Dial up is the most common interface for Internet .. which unfortunately Linux donot support internal modems .. You will consider this a bit hyped up, but this is the sole reason I sacrifice my Linux partition whenever I need hard disk space .. The support for printers is another one ..

And yeah .. Acer started giving Linux preinstalled on their laptops to cut prices, but they started getting toooo many complains about people getting problems in using it .. and they did not have any support professionals who would take Linux troubleshooting .. They came back to WinXP again ..

I am saying it again and again .. read my first reply in the thread .. there is nothing wrong in being complex .. If you sit on W2k3 server, you will find that it too has got great customization and power but you cannot use it as a desktop system .. Because its not written for that use ..
The very roots of Linux are from Unix which was *not* written for desktop use .. And if they have to embrace this field, they will have to shed that geeky image ..

 

[sba]

I do not see any logic in buying hardware only because the software doesnt support my existing one ... If it was for a real performance gain, I'dve considered but there is none ... so out of question ..

Ok then consider this hypothetical situation where these Winmodems that you are so fond of didn't work on Windows and rather worked excellently under Linux. What if Windows supported only external modem and not internal. What would you do? Would you still buy the internal modem and hit your head with it or go out and buy an external one? Providing drivers for a hardware that work on a particular OS is a duty of the hardware manufacturer and not of OS. If a manufacturer doesn't want to support your needs why should you support him financially and tap him on his back that he is doing a great job???

Now come to ethics .. I have argued this *many* times .. Tell me .. If you were the head of Microsoft, what wouldve you not done to make it to the top ..? You wouldve done everything to compete .. This is business .. You want your car to look better than anyone else . .. I dont see any wrong in that ..

Of course there is nothing wrong in it but that is not the *only* thing MS is doing. They force PC manufacturers to pre-install its OS on their PCs in lieu of discounts. They pay rival companies to throw patent law suites on companies they want out of their way. This is unethical and that is what everyone talks about. If everyone thinks "i m not effected by it" then there will be time when you *will* be effected by it. Doing business doesn't mean uprooting competition by unethical ways. Let me give you an example the way you did. Imagine there is a huge hotel and you own a small eating place near it. People visit your place often b'cos of your cordial service and excellent dishes but your place is not very beautiful. What happens? The big hotel owner doesn't like you. He uses his money power and stops your supplies by forcing your suppliers to either supply the raw material to him or to you. Additionally he makes lots of govt. agencies to work against you. You would like all this? After all the hotel owner is just doing business or is it business at all??? Think about it...

I am *not* single sided .. I do have an installation of Suse on my system .. But I dont go and brag saying that I use Suse because I hate Microsoft and their ethics .. I use Suse because I like learning new things ..

No one is bragging. That is just how a few people feel about Microsoft. That is our opinion...you are free you have your own.

 

[sba]

And yeah .. Acer started giving Linux preinstalled on their laptops to cut prices, but they started getting toooo many complains about people getting problems in using it .. and they did not have any support professionals who would take Linux troubleshooting .. They came back to WinXP again ..

You gotta be kidding me when you talk about Acer. Tell me truthfully...do you have any idea that which distro was being preinstalled by Acer on its laptops and what were its features?

 

[it_waaznt_me]

Ah .. Sadly this is turning into another debate .. But go ahead ..

Ok then consider this hypothetical situation where these Winmodems that you are so fond of didn't work on Windows and rather worked excellently under Linux. What if Windows supported only external modem and not internal. What would you do? Would you still buy the internal modem and hit your head with it or go out and buy an external one? Providing drivers for a hardware that work on a particular OS is a duty of the hardware manufacturer and not of OS. If a manufacturer doesn't want to support your needs why should you support him financially and tap him on his back that he is doing a great job???

No sir, demand determine the price .. Internal modems are cheap because they are sold much .. and they are sold becuase there is software to run it .. Your logic wouldve worked if internal modems were invented after Linux arrived .. But its the other way round .. Linux arrived after modems ... so it was the job of coders to support it in their systems .. The excellent support people tell me that as winmodems use software data flow control, it cannot be implemented in Linux or whatever .. And let me tell you ... if external modems were the only supported by Windows, their price wouldve been much lower than what it is now ..

Imagine there is a huge hotel and you own a small eating place near it. People visit your place often b'cos of your cordial service and excellent dishes but your place is not very beautiful. What happens? The big hotel owner doesn't like you. He uses his money power and stops your supplies by forcing your suppliers to either supply the raw material to him or to you. Additionally he makes lots of govt. agencies to work against you. You would like all this? After all the hotel owner is just doing business or is it business at all??? Think about it...

Excellent example .. But we are here debating not as the hotel owners but as their customers .. The customer will go where they will find their needs getting fulfilled ..If the big hotel owner is fulfiling them, why not .. And just tell me .. Do we *ever* consider the ethics or their policies before going to say a hotel or a restaurant ..? We do what concerns us ..

[Edit]You posted while I was replying .. Yupp I screwed up there .. I think it was Zenith and not Acer .. And with all bad luck I cant seem to find link to the story ..

 

[sba]

.. But its the other way round .. Linux arrived after modems ... so it was the job of coders to support it in their systems ..

What??? So if an OS comes after a hardware it is duty of the OS to provide drivers???
mate, just tell me do you see manufacturers providing drivers with their hardware for every Windows version or not? If your point is true then why do we get driver's CD with every hardware we get? Why do we get drivers from Win 98 to WinXP? I simply don't understand. Do you look for your drivers on the hardware manufacturer's website or on Microsoft.com? Another example: I have a old printer by HP and I need it to work on WinXP, do I look for drivers on microsoft.com or hp.com? Be it old or new...the onus of providing drivers is on the shoulders of a manufacturer and not on an OS.

Excellent example .. But we are here debating not as the hotel owners but as their customers .. The customer will go where they will find their needs getting fulfilled ..If the big hotel owner is fulfiling them, why not .. And just tell me .. Do we *ever* consider the ethics or their policies before going to say a hotel or a restaurant ..? We do what concerns us ..

You started the angle of business man and said that doing business that way is not wrong which is why I gave you the example of a business man. Now you wanna talk the consumer point of view...fine by me...
Consider this...
You are not very rich and till now have been stealing food from the back door of the huge hotel. Suddenly the small joint pops up...and you think..."Hey I can afford his food". You go in there...enjoy the service and the food but after a few days you come to know all the ugly things the big hotel owner is doing with the small place. Would you be amused? You don't care? If you don't...then you are doing a HUGE mistake. Why? Here's why...
The hotel owner knows that he has a back door from where the food is being stolen but he is just allowing you to have fun until he forces all the small joints to shut down and then he will force you to shell huge amount of money for his food. If you don't care about the ethics today then you WILL care about it tomorrow. FOR SURE!!!

 

[srijit]

woot am getting confused
i have just one plea.
if you decide to try Linux, please keep an open mind and be prepared to learn.
it gives me great satisfaction in learning how to do things in linux. all this talk about winmodems, just search for linmodems in google. get the help of the community. someone will always help. :d

 

[mystic_hunter]

nations

I dont see what you meant by that .. I never say anything about Open Source's nature or something ..

With akshar's reference, I would like to remind that Linux was written in protest of commercial nature of Unix and not Windows .. It was a sign of liberation for programmers from commercial installations of Unix .. They never had any idea that it will extend to desktops .. You should read the early newsgroups postings ...
This anti Microsoft feeling come only when Linux started to touch the desktop boundaries .. The only competitor .. Windows .. So how to down them .. ? Just aim at their "inethical policies and ethics" ...

yep i know u never meant it but i thought i could make a point worth thinking.

Thats the sole reason that Linux is still considered a "geek's stuff" .. Normal home desktop users do not know what Linux is and hence find it not interesting .. I remember in software engineering the first thing we were taught is "Programmers are not users and Users are not programmers" .. If a user wont find a program easy to use, he will dump it .. As easy as that ..

Knowledge has become the wealth of nations....and our country is not apart from it...if the indian community can rise up...may be we ll be the first persons on mars...who knows

 

[vignesh]

Once the winmodems start working in Linux or someone writes the drives for them , Linux will become big.

 

[akshar]

problem

Problem with Linux users that they are still stressing on the point that Linux is so powerful n robust n sometimes even more userfriendliness. But I still feel that unless and untill the
Linux world is not managed properly it will not get as popular as Windows.

Imagine a car company just givig away it's cars for free. But still people are reluctant to use it why?

 

[sba]

Re: problem

Imagine a car company just givig away it's cars for free. But still people are reluctant to use it why?

B'cos people have fallen in a habit of stealing *better looking* cars?

 

[it_waaznt_me]

Phew .. What a terrible day .. Okay .. So ..? Heck .. I am tired of all this ( ..

The onus of the programmers lies in creating support for hardware in the operating system .. then only the manufacturers can create drivers .. And as Linux is a community project, if manufacturers do no provide drivers, someone from the community write it .. But this has not done for modems .. Why ..? Because Linux natively doesnt support it ..

And lol .. I loved your pun on piracy .. But here we are talking about operating systems which we do not go and buy everyday .. for most people its one time investment and it goes like that .. so if you have paid once for the food and you got the service, why goto a joint ..?

Once the winmodems start working in Linux or someone writes the drives for them , Linux will become big.

Lol .. that wont happen .. SM56 and Conexant are the most common modems around and after so many efforts, the modems do not work .. There is one site which sells drivers for Conexant for a price in which you can buy an external modem .. or better hire a programmer to do tha job .. ..

 

[it_waaznt_me]

And for the "ethics" discussion .. Using Linux as a protest against Microsoft's ethics is like buying an Indian bike (fuel efficient, cost efficient, good service, blah blah ) instead of Hero Honda (most of what Indian bikes too have) only because you say that Japan started second world war and your great great grandfather's puppy died in it ..
Why not highlight the good points of Linux instead of criticising MS' ones ..?

 

[theraven]

i dun think most of u ppl get the point of linux
or even the point bat put forward very simply ...
even hes gettin a lil excited and explainin various aspects of each os .. which is understandable !!

let goto basics ..
its like comparing apples with oranges ...
U JUST CANT !!
for ANY comparison to be valid ... u need a "common" base !
linux and windows HAVE NO COMMON BASE !!
well not a wide enought one anyways ..
hence it is STUPIDITY to compare them

every person in this thread , or otherwise , who says "windows rulez" or "windows is overated, linuz rules" are basically 2 sides of a coin

they are 2 diff ppl , one who likes apples .. the other who likes oranges
one who likes coffee , the other who likes toffee
the argument CONTINUES .. with NO DEFINITE RESULT
its like having an argument abt which antivirus u use , or which browser u use
it IS infact a matter of choice !

LINUX OS was built with a whole different mind set than windows OS
and the fact that slowly and in the near future , it is/can/may give windows a run for the money does NOT make it eligible for a comparison yet !

for one very simepl eg. linux is prefered as a server os over windows
reasons:
1) greater uptimes
2) CHOICE !

windows is prefered over linux as a workstation OS
reasons
1) user friendliness
2) no CLI trainin required
3) a longer runnin time as primary PC OS

i could mention a lot more points .. but they will just become REDUNDANT
pointin to the same point ..
there is NO comparison !