IMate SP5M for 11K.... worth buying..??

[prasad_den]

^ Check the links given in this thread mate. K550 is an awesome phone.. has a 2MP cam.
Imate is a windows mobile smartphone. has a 1.3MP cam. However, both are of totally different genres and so a right comparison cannot be made.

 

[PCWORM]

Thnks......
ill see d links...

 

[aceman]

^^ regarding closing the programs, thats how it is in all windows mobile phones..!! An intentional design, though I don't understand its purpose or significance..!

I would like to answer this question.Do note that what I am saying is applicable only to Windows Mobile 5.0 & 6.0 (ie magneto and crossbow).What i say may or may not hold true for Photon (Mobile 7.0 or whatever it is called as).

In a galaxy long,long away, there was a gamming console called as Sega Dream cast for which the Empire (Microsoft) wrote a Operating system called as Windows CE which was designed to run on 4Mb of flash and 1MB of RAM.
Sega Dream cast was basically a flop but microsoft decided to use the New Operating system for a new device called as Hand Held PC which was direct competior to Palm pilots.This device had a Desktop PC kind of look and operation but was a basically a disaster since it was too slow when compared with pam pilot and palm kicked microsoft out of the ground.
Then the question was how is that palm was able to achieve very high performance and Wince sucked ?
The answer is something called as memory management.Embedded devices being very slow in nature (remember this year is 1998 and not 2008 ) just did not have the power to do any of the below points

a)High funda paging mechanism's
b)No power to make context switches
c)No power to launch applications once again

Since with 4Mb of flash and 1Mb of Ram without a hardware MMU (Memory management Unit) this trade of was necessary and it did make extreme sense in 1998 since

a)Application loads extremely fast as it is loaded only once
b)No need to mess around with to many stack,heap,dlls.........etc and thus in general improving the speed of the processor.

also in 1998
a)palm did not close its applications.
b)Cell phones did not do it (aka 3315...etc).
c)VCR's,Consoles...etc did not close its applications.
c)Basically no embedded device did it for the above mentioned reasons.

The basic reasoning behind this is that the user does not need to manage their own memory in an embedded device as there was always going to one or two applications only (remember crossbow was never even imagined in 1998) and for these requirements this scheme suited just fine.

Then why on earth then the "X" is there in a WM device ?
Well this is pretty stupid actually.There are two buttons in a desktop windows , the "_" button which will minimise the screen and the "X" button which will kill the application.
This insted of the using the Go Away Icon ( "_") in a windows mobile device the kill Icon ("X") was used but this does the functionality of Go Away("_") of its desktop counterpart.
Thus running multiple applications eats into the Virtual memory ( there is someting called as 32Mb/32 Process limit but this is a different story) of the device ( even though physical memory aka RAM) is available,thus causing the sluggish behaviour which plages the latest WM devices ( Applications are optimesed for VM in WM device rather than Physical memory -: -: ).

Is this acceptable ?
For obvious reasons this situtation is completly un-acceptable since in a price consious device the existing resources should be well used and thus the kernel has been completely written (yep totally) in Ce 6.0, which should have the option to actually kill the applications in addition to a lot more changes.

I hope this answers your query on why applications do not close in WM device.

 

[prasad_den]

^^ Nice info mate..!! Would answer not just mine, but several people's queries..

 

[deepakchan]

Imate SP5M is a worthy phone for this rate,welcome to windows group!

HTC Tornado (another name of this phone) has 'Crossbow' upgrade and it's possible to make it A2DP compliant!

I don't want to confuse you with lot of advantages,you may require sometime to familiarize your new 'Windows' mobile.

All the Best!!

Hi, I have a small problem. I configured the office email which is on mail.vsnl.com server for dad on the imate sp5m. There was no option to leave the messages on the server or not. So I assumed that the messages will be left on server and retrieved the messages for him. But later, at the office computer he found that all the messages have gone. There's not a single message on the server. What could be the problem? I searched the net on how to set the option. But all the fora said that there is no such option in pocket outlook and the messages will be left on server and there's no way you could delete them from the server using pocket outlook. But it happens ulta for dad.

 

[mobilegeek]

I would like to answer this question.Do note that what I am saying is applicable only to Windows Mobile 5.0 & 6.0 (ie magneto and crossbow).What i say may or may not hold true for Photon (Mobile 7.0 or whatever it is called as).

In a galaxy long,long away, there was a gamming console called as Sega Dream cast for which the Empire (Microsoft) wrote a Operating system called as Windows CE which was designed to run on 4Mb of flash and 1MB of RAM.
Sega Dream cast was basically a flop but microsoft decided to use the New Operating system for a new device called as Hand Held PC which was direct competior to Palm pilots.This device had a Desktop PC kind of look and operation but was a basically a disaster since it was too slow when compared with pam pilot and palm kicked microsoft out of the ground.
Then the question was how is that palm was able to achieve very high performance and Wince sucked ?
The answer is something called as memory management.Embedded devices being very slow in nature (remember this year is 1998 and not 2008 ) just did not have the power to do any of the below points

a)High funda paging mechanism's
b)No power to make context switches
c)No power to launch applications once again

Since with 4Mb of flash and 1Mb of Ram without a hardware MMU (Memory management Unit) this trade of was necessary and it did make extreme sense in 1998 since

a)Application loads extremely fast as it is loaded only once
b)No need to mess around with to many stack,heap,dlls.........etc and thus in general improving the speed of the processor.

also in 1998
a)palm did not close its applications.
b)Cell phones did not do it (aka 3315...etc).
c)VCR's,Consoles...etc did not close its applications.
c)Basically no embedded device did it for the above mentioned reasons.

The basic reasoning behind this is that the user does not need to manage their own memory in an embedded device as there was always going to one or two applications only (remember crossbow was never even imagined in 1998) and for these requirements this scheme suited just fine.

Then why on earth then the "X" is there in a WM device ?
Well this is pretty stupid actually.There are two buttons in a desktop windows , the "_" button which will minimise the screen and the "X" button which will kill the application.
This insted of the using the Go Away Icon ( "_") in a windows mobile device the kill Icon ("X") was used but this does the functionality of Go Away("_") of its desktop counterpart.
Thus running multiple applications eats into the Virtual memory ( there is someting called as 32Mb/32 Process limit but this is a different story) of the device ( even though physical memory aka RAM) is available,thus causing the sluggish behaviour which plages the latest WM devices ( Applications are optimesed for VM in WM device rather than Physical memory -: -: ).

Is this acceptable ?
For obvious reasons this situtation is completly un-acceptable since in a price consious device the existing resources should be well used and thus the kernel has been completely written (yep totally) in Ce 6.0, which should have the option to actually kill the applications in addition to a lot more changes.

I hope this answers your query on why applications do not close in WM device.

great ..

can you precisely tell me the difference between Windows Mobile 5.0/6.0 and Windows Smartphone edition.

 

[aceman]

great ..

can you precisely tell me the difference between Windows Mobile 5.0/6.0 and Windows Smartphone edition.

Sure,I would love to and I beive you had ment Wince 5.0/6.0 and Windows Smartphone.

Windows Ce 5.0:
This is a componetized hard real time operating system (Like RTLinux,Vx works...etc), which is similar to a set of Lego Boxes.If you want a make a device (say a Thin Client) then you chose which componetents you want and make a device (Like IE,COM,Display,Direct draw,C Run time libs....etc) just like building something with Lego Toys.
The royalty for this is quite cheap ($3 for Core) and is widely used in Set-Top boxes,Gateways....etc.The development tool used for developing this is called "Platform Builder".This Windows Ce 5.0 base kernel was Windows Ce 3.0 and is a second generation CE kernel.
Thus many many might be using a device powered by Ce but may not even know it.In case you want some third party to develop software for your device then you create a SDK and give it to them.

Windows Mobile:
This term denotes not one devices but a combination of multiple devices, but let me go into the reasoning behing Windows Mobile.
As I had said above with Wince . I can create anything I want, which means nothing stops me from creating a phone on Wince, but then it will turn like the symbian mess.To many devices and not a Unified SDK (remember the OEM gives the SDK for Ce).
Thus MS chose the Lego Blocks from the Full CE thing and added a few more like Radio layer (used for calling),Direct Show video capture pipeling (for camera),Pocket office......etc which are specific for Mobile Phones and a Fixed UI ( beileve me this is the only thing which sucks in WM).
Thus Dell or HP or O2 or anybody who makes a phone will have near Identical features with near identical UI and fixed form factor like 120*120,320*240,640*480, quetry keyboard........etc.The tool used to build this is called as "Microsoft Smart Phone Adpatation Kit (SAK)" and I am one of the lucky few to have worked in these : :.

Now lets go to the different smart phones.

a)Smart-Phone:
These are phones like Samsung Blackjack....etc. which have a 120*120 screen,No touch panel,Only keyboard inputs, Stripped down middle ware, less powerful hardware like OMAP 730 and basically a low cost version which will cost some >$100 or more to make.

b)Pocket Pc:
well these are PDA's like Dell Axim X51.

c)Pocket Pc Phone:
These are build using the same SDK as the Pocket PC but with the addition of the Radio layer.examples are the O2 Atom,Hp.....etc and are targetted at the entriprise users.

The different Mobile SDK's are

a)Magneto ( Windows Mobile 5.0)
Successor to Smart Phone 2003 which ran on Ce.net 4.2 which runs on CE 5.0 and provided some amazing stuff.

b)CrossBow(Windows Mobile 6.0)
This should be called as Mobile 5.2 since it is an up-graded version of Magneto with better connectivity and more fancy GUI, has Silverlite,Deep fish...etc, nothing great to talk home about but can hold tide against the iPhone till Photon comes.

These are the limitations in windows mobile

a)Virtual memory,Virtual memory,Virtual memory and more virtual memory.
This issue sucks, the ce 3.0 was designed to run 2 or 3 apps and not 50 or 60 apps like today and it shows.Partly the reason is that MS was treating the phone as a desktop counterpart and not as its replacement.
And trust me this limitation is pretty Sh$$$$ty.

b)Did I say the virtual memory limitation ?

c)More virtual memory problems

d)Security:
I do not want to discuss a lot about this, but a poorly written driver can do some many things wrong which a potential hacker can exploit (then again an embedded device was never supposed to be hacked in 1998 : )

e)No user(OEM) customisable UI.
MS does have its own reasons for this but this is something they should seriously think about since the only way anybody can compete against the iPhone.

f)Poor performance even on PXA270 due to Virtual memory limitations.

g)System call is very slow:
In windows xp/nt ....etc the Device manager,Graphics....etc are part of the kernel and thus only one switch is involved in calling those, but in Ce 5.0 these are part of the user space.

Yamazaki (Windows Ce 6.0):
This architecture closely resembles its desktop big brother (aka Windows XP) and has none of the Virtual memory issues,Amazing security,Improved system calls,Excellent middleware.........etc and hopefully the "X" button in WM will now actually close the application.

Photon (aka No idea what it is going to be called):
This is the SDK which is currently being developed by MS which will be based on the 3rd Generation CE 6.0 kernel called as Yamazaki.This will basically turn a new leaf and a new breath of life into windows mobile (about time if you ask me) which supports amazing graphics (so i am told),Sliver light,
OEM customisable UI( Hope so), Can play any video format ( I really want this one) and Much better Direct Draw and D3D (if Ce 6.0 is anything to go by).
If you ask me Nokia is a Phone company and not a OS company, things like iPhone actually will help WM to gain more market share and Photon is the OS to look for.

ps: I use a W810i :, till they Improve the DirectShow middleware for better Video and High Def, this stays.

 

[mobilegeek]

damm what are you a retired head of Mobile Platform at windows
i just want to read 100 more pages.

..

What are differences in the type of softwares that can be installed on the different platform.

you said about the virtual memory, ..
ya thats
the main thing
the only thing ..
the disgusting thing

and are you sure virtual memory problem will end in 6.0?


Windows Ce based phones are on buying list but they are just too expensive.
windows 6.0 looks next best thing.
have you seen the ultimate series they are too good. but I know it will be definitly out of my budget
i just love the new green theme.

i-phone is good. only 2 things that I rather wait for is, like in i-pods they will comeup with better version every 6 months. two - dont have a clue on the support of thirdparty sw.

 

[aceman]

damm what are you a retired head of Mobile Platform at windows
i just want to read 100 more pages.

...

:.
On record I develop device drivers on Windows Ce/Mobile and Linux (Yes you heard right) platforms.

What are differences in the type of softwares that can be installed on the different platform.

No Clue what this means, but if you are asking about the applications compatabilty, then a properly wiritten app should run out of the box in all kernel versions. (Then again no app I had seen is "properly written" ).

you said about the virtual memory, ..
ya thats
the main thing
the only thing ..
the disgusting thing

and are you sure virtual memory problem will end in 6.0?

This not something I say, ask any Windows Mobile dev, he/she would have the same answer.
Regarding Virtual memory problem ending in CE 6.0, well i will quote one of the Windows Kernel developer words

"In CE 6.0 user will run out of physical memory before,then run out of Virtual memory", thus in one word YES.

Windows Ce based phones are on buying list but they are just too expensive.
windows 6.0 looks next best thing.

My personal opinon would be to wait till the iPhone releases and see a drop in prices, once phone(s) based on CE 6.0 gets released (hopefully next year) current phones might look like legacy(Note:Ce 6.0 kernel is completely re-written).
And yes WM phones are currently overpriced, 40,000 for a phone is insane (these O2 stealth series or whatever it is called as).

have you seen the ultimate series they are too good. but I know it will be definitly out of my budget
i just love the new green theme.
w.

If you have a phone now then wait and watch for the impact which the iPhone will have, i predict that there will be drop in prices of the "Smart Phones" , like i said i use a W810i.

 

[mobilegeek]

:.
On record I develop device drivers on Windows Ce/Mobile and Linux (Yes you heard right) platforms.

wow thats cool, so you working with Microsoft .. where!

My personal opinon would be to wait till the iPhone releases and see a drop in prices, once phone(s) based on CE 6.0 gets released (hopefully next year) current phones might look like legacy(Note:Ce 6.0 kernel is completely re-written).
And yes WM phones are currently overpriced, 40,000 for a phone is insane (these O2 stealth series or whatever it is called as).

Thats right why spend that much when I can have a mini laptop for that price.

If you have a phone now then wait and watch for the impact which the iPhone will have, i predict that there will be drop in prices of the "Smart Phones" , like i said i use a W810i.

Did ya noticed the price of P990i has literally crashed. Its was priced 32k and yesterday a guy I know has purchased for 19.8k. We might see the same thing.