Doctors in India? What is your views?

[AcceleratorX]

For all of those talking about "donations", let me tell you this has nothing to do with anything. Donation brings just as many good students as it does bad students. I have been one of the best students in my engineering college going out (in terms of marks, as well as knowledge). If you have seen my posts, you also know I am generally someone who knows what I am talking about. I went in through donation - for all the praise I get about being knowledgeable, hardworking and sincere, I couldn't make it on my merit.

What does this mean? It means one simple thing - the problem is that the education system in India simply fails to acquire the correct candidates for the job. Half the people are simply unfit in spite of entrance tests (both engineering and medical). That is the truth. The education is also heavily based on theoretical things, there is a focus on trying to be a "jack of all trades" rather than candidate's specific focus areas, a lack of flexibility, etc.

So yes. About 50% of India's doctors and engineers are pure quack. That is the result of the unscientific and horrible selection system

But there are good students and good doctors too. It has nothing to do with donation. It has to do with finding the right candidate who puts in the dedication, effort and understanding of the value of his/her job to society - this is what makes a good doctor, engineer or scientists - NOT knowledge of x or y subject or dreams of big job with high salary (which is why many people are joining these courses anyway).

When India understands this, it will be better for it. Otherwise, same old, same old

I will again say that there are not many people who have been scoring the lowest of the low marks as well as the highest of the high marks throughout their academic career - most are consistent in academics. As a result, they may not properly understand why marks does not necessarily equate to merit. I have been in both places, and I know much better about these things. Donation, though conceptually evil, gives an opportunity to those that the system failed. It is important that people remember this.

EDIT: It is also a good idea to check and see the symptoms yourself a little. Some books you can read on your own. Doctors have a lot on their plate, and though someone may like to work in oncology, he or she may not necessarily be able to due to various reasons. They may thus be ill-prepared and given a department they never considered ideal for them. They are human, they too forget and make mistakes sometimes. Some are just not fit for the job like I said earlier.

Read up, keep a few books with you - especially things like ayurveda. Check the symptoms: Know the chemistry of the microbes responsible. Then you can self-diagnose to a large extent. I am usually able to see what's wrong whenever I have an issue. The rest comes down to discussion with the doctor to find the best medicine. When it is a more complicated matter, that's when advanced supervision is required.

If I can do it, so can you

 

[furious_gamer]

^^ Well, eh, another good point? But i don't think this is not what we discussed. It's all about quality of doctors.

 

[AcceleratorX]

^^ Well, eh, another good point? But i don't think this is not what we discussed. It's all about quality of doctors.

Answered that too, like I said about half of them are not very good at their job at all . Tried to focus a bit on the reasons for it, that's all .

I've personally had both good and bad experience with doctors - and, these days, since I've become pretty good at self-diagnosis, it's become a lot easier as my own description gives the doctor enough clues to go on to make a mostly accurate diagnosis

Example: Had a bad case of ear infection a while back. Doctor suspected fungal infection, I suspected bacterial based on the smell of the discharge from the ear. Turned out, it was both. It got cured, as I used medicine that was anti-fungal and anti-bacterial in the same formulation, instead of the purely anti-fungal drug that was prescribed to me

(BTW. Not a good experience. Almost total ear blockage. A lot of debris had to be vacuum pumped out - mainly flakes of dead skin as a result of fungal infection)

 

[a_medico]

Had a bad case of ear infection a while back. Doctor suspected fungal infection, I suspected bacterial based on the smell of the discharge from the ear. Turned out, it was both. It got cured, as I used medicine that was anti-fungal and anti-bacterial in the same formulation, instead of the purely anti-fungal drug that was prescribed to me

Looks like you also took medicine as one of the subjects in engineering. By the way, I am hoping you don't have a family history of diabetes and have checked your sugars too rule out diabetes, where such infections are common.

 

[AcceleratorX]

Looks like you also took medicine as one of the subjects in engineering. By the way, I am hoping you don't have a family history of diabetes and have checked your sugars too rule out diabetes, where such infections are common.

The only person in my family to have diabetes was my grandmother from maternal side. Nobody else has had it. Sugars are fine. If this was a jab at my knowledge: two things. I was very good at Biology (board exams as well as CET). This means I could have easily done pharmacy or medicine, I chose not to. I am still fairly conversant with most topics relevant to general biology (not specific stuff like neurochemistry etc. - now that is too complicated for me). Of course, you need to be good at understanding cell biology, physiology and chemistry, or else one must not even try and see why one is not feeling well

Second thing - as both infections did not subside at the same time, a later visit to the doctor did confirm there was bacterial infection there as well. That's why I said "turned out it was both". Though, discharges can easily throw you off I guess. That was a good guess on my part which led to a faster recovery

I didn't take medicine as part of engineering, but I am one of those guys who likes to read a little bit of every science . As such I have the respect both ways, that's why my post did not outright attack doctors.

A good career path for me would have been bio-medical engineering, but unfortunately I have been actively discouraged by factors beyond my control from going down that path. Hopefully, one day I'll be able to pursue it further

Hey, I'm not saying my knowledge is perfect - I didn't get the fungal infection part of it right, see? That's why I say that diagnosis can be difficult, each individual is a different case - in medicine, there is no "generic case" so to speak. So I don't blame the doctor at all there!

Also, do not mock others' knowledge - appreciate that people are trying to learn outside the system. Arrogance is never good for any society or person! It is not the degree that gives you knowledge.

 

[a_medico]

^^ My apologies if my comments hurt you. Wasn't the intention.

 

[isaac12345]

It might look like just another debate, but it isn't. It happens to me, and so there is no i-heard-so event in this post.

It was 2003, and i had severe stomach pain, all of a sudden, and i never ever got sick like that till that day. I went to nearest doctor, and after lot of tests, he confirm that it is stomach ulcer. I was quite surprised, because i have very good food habit and i used to eat in time. So i took pills(later i realize those are only painkillers ) given by him, and it was ok, though still less painful. And i used to get this pain very often say once in a month, so we went to another doctor, i told him i got some kinda lump in lower-stomach and he again made it clear that it is stomach ulcer.

Then it was fine from 2005 and i was doing good. Then again, at 2009, i got severe stomach pain, for which i admitted in big clinic in Chennai and to my surprise they ran lot of tests, again i mentioned that lump thing to the chief doctor and even he tell the same thing, Stomach ulcer. In these times, the pain is excruciating. I still remember i didn't sleep straight 48 hours, because if i lay on bed, pain throttles from 0-100 immediately so i stayed up and sit down for 2 days. After a week, it was ok and my life becomes normal.

Later 2011, December, after a week from my marriage, i got the stomach pain, and went to see a doctor. Immediately after looking at the lump, he told me it is Hernia. And i was shocked to hear that and want to confirm. So went to specialist and he confirmed the same. And i underwent surgery within next 3 days, and the chief doctor was asking me, how long you have this, i said almost 8 years, and he was like WTF! Yes, he even scolded me for being so careless.

The big thing is, while surgery there was some complications but overall it went fine. Although, if i do the surgery a year or so later, i would have end up removing my spermatic cord , which means i might end up being impotent .

Can you imagine, the pain i have gone through all these years, is because of some dumb-a$$ doctors(not one, 4 doctors ) carelessness?

1. If the doctors at my place have diagnosed this earlier, i wouldn't end up with surgery complications, and if i did the surgery back in 2004, it would have been quite easy for me and doctors too.
2. Why would doctors not even looking at lump area and w/o looking they are telling me, it was stomach ulcer. Are they even real doctors?
3. Such an reputed hospital in Chennai missed out such big lump? Are they fu(king cheating patients?

What is your view regarding the doctors in India?

AFAIK, 50% of them are fake. And most of them only know few things and they tell patients to follow certain things, which is not even needed for them.

Finally, if a doctor is telling w/o even looking at reports or at the wound/lump/whatever-it-is, just run from that place and look in some other hospitals. Also, even some big hospital chains are doing this, is kinda shocked Please beware of these small clinics and don't go to these small clinics, where the doctors treat you like i-don't-care-attitude.

Did you actually call up the previous doctors to let them know? You really should and give them a piece of your mind. Dont let people like these get away lightly. God knows who else they are treating. If you can, complain to higher authorities that certify their license to practice

- - - Updated - - -

For all of those talking about "donations", let me tell you this has nothing to do with anything. Donation brings just as many good students as it does bad students. I have been one of the best students in my engineering college going out (in terms of marks, as well as knowledge). If you have seen my posts, you also know I am generally someone who knows what I am talking about. I went in through donation - for all the praise I get about being knowledgeable, hardworking and sincere, I couldn't make it on my merit.

What does this mean? It means one simple thing - the problem is that the education system in India simply fails to acquire the correct candidates for the job. Half the people are simply unfit in spite of entrance tests (both engineering and medical). That is the truth. The education is also heavily based on theoretical things, there is a focus on trying to be a "jack of all trades" rather than candidate's specific focus areas, a lack of flexibility, etc.

So yes. About 50% of India's doctors and engineers are pure quack. That is the result of the unscientific and horrible selection system

But there are good students and good doctors too. It has nothing to do with donation. It has to do with finding the right candidate who puts in the dedication, effort and understanding of the value of his/her job to society - this is what makes a good doctor, engineer or scientists - NOT knowledge of x or y subject or dreams of big job with high salary (which is why many people are joining these courses anyway).

When India understands this, it will be better for it. Otherwise, same old, same old

I will again say that there are not many people who have been scoring the lowest of the low marks as well as the highest of the high marks throughout their academic career - most are consistent in academics. As a result, they may not properly understand why marks does not necessarily equate to merit. I have been in both places, and I know much better about these things. Donation, though conceptually evil, gives an opportunity to those that the system failed. It is important that people remember this.

EDIT: It is also a good idea to check and see the symptoms yourself a little. Some books you can read on your own. Doctors have a lot on their plate, and though someone may like to work in oncology, he or she may not necessarily be able to due to various reasons. They may thus be ill-prepared and given a department they never considered ideal for them. They are human, they too forget and make mistakes sometimes. Some are just not fit for the job like I said earlier.

Read up, keep a few books with you - especially things like ayurveda. Check the symptoms: Know the chemistry of the microbes responsible. Then you can self-diagnose to a large extent. I am usually able to see what's wrong whenever I have an issue. The rest comes down to discussion with the doctor to find the best medicine. When it is a more complicated matter, that's when advanced supervision is required.

If I can do it, so can you

That is such absolute bull!

Just because you can do it, you cant expect everyone to have the same skill, ability and access to resources to do the same. Moreover, by saying that, you completely ignore the trust placed by the patient in the doctor who maybe undermining it. You also ignore systemic issues like corruption of the profession, the role of variable salaries based on the number of patients seen per day as opposed to fixed salaries, pressures and 'seducements' from healthcare companies to push their products to patients and changes in the treatment of the disease itself, to name a few. By saying 'If I can do it, so can you' you expect everyone to be aware of such issues and that is just living in LALAland!

 

[AcceleratorX]

Just because you can do it, you cant expect everyone to have the same skill, ability and access to resources to do the same.

I get told this a lot, but then....most of the people telling me this have had much better marks in 12th and 10th than I did.....Then why is it that an "inferior" student is able to do it? Systemic failure, like I said.

Moreover, by saying that, you completely ignore the trust placed by the patient in the doctor who maybe undermining it.

Doctors are people too. It's important to use your common sense. If the foundations are weak or a pillar is cracked it's wise to get it fixed before taking an engineer's opinion. That's how it is.

You also ignore systemic issues like corruption of the profession, the role of variable salaries based on the number of patients seen per day as opposed to fixed salaries, pressures and 'seducements' from healthcare companies to push their products to patients and changes in the treatment of the disease itself, to name a few.

Corruption is the talk of the day in India. You just gotta stay on your toes. I don't see anything wrong with variable salaries on a heuristic level: More work, more pay seems fine to me.

As for evil big pharma, there are cases where medicines are exaggerated but these don't seem to be the general talk of the day. At the end of the day most docs push a company's products and most companies manufacture all standard medicines.

That is such absolute bull!

Nothing I say about our education and job system is bull. Rather, the stone cold truth.

 

[isaac12345]

I get told this a lot, but then....most of the people telling me this have had much better marks in 12th and 10th than I did.....Then why is it that an "inferior" student is able to do it? Systemic failure, like I said.



Doctors are people too. It's important to use your common sense. If the foundations are weak or a pillar is cracked it's wise to get it fixed before taking an engineer's opinion. That's how it is.



Corruption is the talk of the day in India. You just gotta stay on your toes. I don't see anything wrong with variable salaries on a heuristic level: More work, more pay seems fine to me.

As for evil big pharma, there are cases where medicines are exaggerated but these don't seem to be the general talk of the day. At the end of the day most docs push a company's products and most companies manufacture all standard medicines.



Nothing I say about our education and job system is bull. Rather, the stone cold truth.

Huh??! You are not making much coherent sense. What's your point? Is it that people 'superior' to you were wrong or that you are ok with doctors pushing a company's products? You make so many points that you end up making none

 

[Desmond]

Just read the OP. Sorry for hijacking.

We have to place so much trust in the doctors that it is scary if they f*** up a diagnosis.

I got a recent experience about this. My roommate's younger brother (about 20-21 years of age now) used to get headaches and sore throats for many years and their doctor just gave him painkillers or cough syrups, etc. This went on for many years until they discovered recently that it was 3rd stage cancer. If he had been diagnosed early, treatment would have been simpler. However, now his treatment is much more difficult and expensive.

This incident prompted me to get Health Insurance since my roommate did not have and now they are struggling financially to fund his brother's treatment.

 

[AcceleratorX]

Is it that people 'superior' to you were wrong

It's an insinuation that Indian administrative system is lined up to ensure that mediocre people have a greater probability of bagging the top posts (as we can easily see in the ground reality). This phenomenon thus permeates to every possible field including medicine, resulting in all the issues described in this thread. That being said, there are just as many good doctors as not-so-good ones, so it's up to you to find them (well, just like any service provider anyway!).

that you are ok with doctors pushing a company's products?

It's a free market and we are a capitalistic government so it is within ethics to promote a certain company's products and a consumer selects that which he considers best i.e. if a consumer has an idea which drug is made by which companies, he might be able to get them cheaper, or an equivalent product, etc.

It is not necessary you HAVE to use the CIPLA tablets that the doctor prescribed you know

You make so many points that you end up making none

Every point is interrelated and nothing will change unless ALL the issues are solved together. I would advise you to think about these things in a little more depth.

 

[isaac12345]

It's a free market and we are a capitalistic government so it is within ethics to promote a certain company's products and a consumer selects that which he considers best i.e. if a consumer has an idea which drug is made by which companies, he might be able to get them cheaper, or an equivalent product, etc.

It is not necessary you HAVE to use the CIPLA tablets that the doctor prescribed you know

If you believe that, then you must also(by logical extension of the underlying economic theory) believe that the so-called consumer knows everything that is to know about the product she is buying right? If you dont, then your above statement doesn't hold.

Every point is interrelated and nothing will change unless ALL the issues are solved together. I would advise you to think about these things in a little more depth.

Before advising me to think about it more deeply, you would be better off to atleast write in a manner that ties all these interrelated issues together. That's why I said that you make so many points that you end up making none.

 

[Zangetsu]

OP situation is similar to the Movie "Gabbar is Back"

Some Doctors are good and some are bad...and it is upto the patient to know which is what..though very hard to tell but still visit the popular & well known (praised by locals)
otherwise visiting a new Doctor and you will be always in a doubt of good or bad.

there are FAKE doctors and appending a M.B.B.S or MDS etc is not hard in a name.

 

[sling-shot]

Just adding a few points to think after going through all posts above:

1. If a doctor earns money based on his skills and effort/duration dedicated to acquiring those skills, is it wrong? Is a doctor who charges very low fees the only "good" one?

2. Some say the doctor gave many medicines not needed while the other says he gave only painkillers and ointment. While one is accusing of giving too much medicines the other is not happy with what he got. So what to do now?

3. If you advise tests then it becomes like the doctor is simply advising unnecessary tests. If no tests are advised and tomorrow something develops you say doctor did not do any tests and is negligent.

4. You go to a doctor with some condition which had just begun. He is unable to say what it is because it is too early. You do not get well with the medicines given for relief only and then you do not go back when better instead go to a different one. He is able to diagnose because now it is fully developed. You blame the first doctor for not giving you the diagnosis. (as if by seeing a few foundation stones in a construction site anyone would be able to say that 5th floor of that building will have Pizza Hut and will serve vegetarian pizzas.)

5. An 80 year old alcoholic with liver failure, kidney failure gets admitted with severe life threatening infections and dies inspite of treatment. Next morning you beat the doctor who sat throughout the nite trying to save patient and make him sick enough to get admitted to the same ICU. Main reason probably to avoid paying the bill.

6. Just because a thing you read up on the internet appears to match with what you feel does not mean that it is exactly the thing that is making you sick. A crow will sit on an old tree and simultaneously the tree falls. Did the tree fall because the crow sat on it?

7. No medicine / treatment can be guaranteed to be a success with zero sjde effects. It is a fact of life. Accept it and understand it first before blaming the doctor.

8. While generic medicines could be cheaper, in many cases there is a difference in the effectiveness. The molecule may be same but the vehicle/impurities etc also matter.

9. In private practice a doctor's earning will depend on his success. So he cannot write low quality medicines because then patients will not come back to him.

There are many things in this matter which are not obvious from one side alone.

I am sorry for the suffering of OP because he seems to have genuinely encountered some incompetence. But that does not mean everyone is out to get you.

 

[isaac12345]

Just adding a few points to think after going through all posts above:

1. If a doctor earns money based on his skills and effort/duration dedicated to acquiring those skills, is it wrong? Is a doctor who charges very low fees the only "good" one?

2. Some say the doctor gave many medicines not needed while the other says he gave only painkillers and ointment. While one is accusing of giving too much medicines the other is not happy with what he got. So what to do now?

3. If you advise tests then it becomes like the doctor is simply advising unnecessary tests. If no tests are advised and tomorrow something develops you say doctor did not do any tests and is negligent.

4. You go to a doctor with some condition which had just begun. He is unable to say what it is because it is too early. You do not get well with the medicines given for relief only and then you do not go back when better instead go to a different one. He is able to diagnose because now it is fully developed. You blame the first doctor for not giving you the diagnosis. (as if by seeing a few foundation stones in a construction site anyone would be able to say that 5th floor of that building will have Pizza Hut and will serve vegetarian pizzas.)

5. An 80 year old alcoholic with liver failure, kidney failure gets admitted with severe life threatening infections and dies inspite of treatment. Next morning you beat the doctor who sat throughout the nite trying to save patient and make him sick enough to get admitted to the same ICU. Main reason probably to avoid paying the bill.

6. Just because a thing you read up on the internet appears to match with what you feel does not mean that it is exactly the thing that is making you sick. A crow will sit on an old tree and simultaneously the tree falls. Did the tree fall because the crow sat on it?

7. No medicine / treatment can be guaranteed to be a success with zero sjde effects. It is a fact of life. Accept it and understand it first before blaming the doctor.

8. While generic medicines could be cheaper, in many cases there is a difference in the effectiveness. The molecule may be same but the vehicle/impurities etc also matter.

9. In private practice a doctor's earning will depend on his success. So he cannot write low quality medicines because then patients will not come back to him.

There are many things in this matter which are not obvious from one side alone.

I am sorry for the suffering of OP because he seems to have genuinely encountered some incompetence. But that does not mean everyone is out to get you.

You only look at one-to-one micro issues. You should also look at systemic issues. For example, the incentives for doctors when in a public healthcare system as opposed to a private one.

 

[Anorion]

Just adding a few points to think after going through all posts above:

1. If a doctor earns money based on his skills and effort/duration dedicated to acquiring those skills, is it wrong? Is a doctor who charges very low fees the only "good" one?

2. Some say the doctor gave many medicines not needed while the other says he gave only painkillers and ointment. While one is accusing of giving too much medicines the other is not happy with what he got. So what to do now?

3. If you advise tests then it becomes like the doctor is simply advising unnecessary tests. If no tests are advised and tomorrow something develops you say doctor did not do any tests and is negligent.

4. You go to a doctor with some condition which had just begun. He is unable to say what it is because it is too early. You do not get well with the medicines given for relief only and then you do not go back when better instead go to a different one. He is able to diagnose because now it is fully developed. You blame the first doctor for not giving you the diagnosis. (as if by seeing a few foundation stones in a construction site anyone would be able to say that 5th floor of that building will have Pizza Hut and will serve vegetarian pizzas.)

5. An 80 year old alcoholic with liver failure, kidney failure gets admitted with severe life threatening infections and dies inspite of treatment. Next morning you beat the doctor who sat throughout the nite trying to save patient and make him sick enough to get admitted to the same ICU. Main reason probably to avoid paying the bill.

6. Just because a thing you read up on the internet appears to match with what you feel does not mean that it is exactly the thing that is making you sick. A crow will sit on an old tree and simultaneously the tree falls. Did the tree fall because the crow sat on it?

7. No medicine / treatment can be guaranteed to be a success with zero sjde effects. It is a fact of life. Accept it and understand it first before blaming the doctor.

8. While generic medicines could be cheaper, in many cases there is a difference in the effectiveness. The molecule may be same but the vehicle/impurities etc also matter.

9. In private practice a doctor's earning will depend on his success. So he cannot write low quality medicines because then patients will not come back to him.

There are many things in this matter which are not obvious from one side alone.

I am sorry for the suffering of OP because he seems to have genuinely encountered some incompetence. But that does not mean everyone is out to get you.

wow that was good.

 

[sling-shot]

I thought I had wasted a lot of time and energy in composing and typing that one
Good to know at least 2 people read it.

 

[TechnoBOY]

I thought I had wasted a lot of time and energy in composing and typing that one
Good to know at least 2 people read it.

Make it 3. Good one!

 

[kARTechnology]

some doctors in India pay crores of money to get a college seat and again some more to become a doc.

after building a hospital, their main aim will be to get the investment in the form of running a hospital.

I had to go to a doc and he gave me tablets which were not available any where and were about to expire in 2 months. local chemists say no one prescribes it.
so i am still using it and i was given that tab because there was ample of stock of that tab with that doc.

it was a small hospital and the doc came in an auto....so i see why...he might be dreaming to buy an Audi or a BMW soon.

and my problem is not solved still, (its a anti histamine tab) and the doc has no explanation why i have got the problem.

 

[Desmond]

[MENTION=322990]jimyhinss[/MENTION] You have nothing better to do? If this is your job, please consider switching to a better field.