[Discussion]What should be the ideal punishment for rapists?

[rhitwick]

This is the topic of time in India. I'm not trying to minimize its importance but just pointing out the obvious.

I've discussed this with my friends, eavesdropped at buses, office canteen, public gatherings people discussing on this. I've not got any satisfactory answer on this. Many have wrong idea about rape, many would blame the women and lotsa wtf things.

So, what our TDF members think about this?

Guys, whatever answer you give here, try to back it up with reasons.
Eg,
Punishment: Hang 'em.
now describe why they had to be given a death penalty rather a lifa?
If you have considered any other punishment for rapists apart from death penalty?
Why have you discarded all other punishments and the one you just posted?
What do you think if your suggested punishment is turned into law would be the effect in potential rapists? And in life of normal people?
If your suggested punishment which if turned to law could be abused anyway?

b/w few insights on 'rape'. Call me a creep but I had to know about it before commenting on it.

Myth: Rape is sex.

Fact: Rape is experienced by the victims as an act of violence. It is a life-threatening experience. One out of every eight adult women has been a victim of forcible rape. (National Victim Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center, 1992) While sexual attraction may be influential, power, control and anger are the primary motives. Most rapists have access to a sexual partner. Gratification comes from gaining power and control and discharging anger. This gratification is only temporary, so the rapist seeks another victim.

Myth: Women incite men to rape.

Fact: Research has found that the vast majority of rapes are planned. Rape is the responsibility of the rapist alone. Women, children and men of every age, physical type and demeanor are raped. Opportunity is the most important factor determining when a given rapist will rape.

Myth: There is a "right way" to respond to a rape situation.

Fact:Since rape is life-threatening and each rapist has his own pattern, the best thing a victim can do is follow her instincts and observe any cues from the rapist. If the victim escapes alive she has done the right thing.

Myth:A victim should be discouraged from dwelling on the rape. She should "forget it".

Fact: This advice generally comes from people who are more concerned with their own feelings than the victim's. All victims should be offered the opportunity to talk about the assault with those personally close to them and knowledgeable professionals. Victims who are not allowed to talk about the rape have a much more difficult time recovering form it.

Myth:Support from family members is essential to the victim's recovery.

Fact: A Victim Services study found that emotional and practical support offered by family and friends does not necessarily speed the recovery of rape victims. However, when the people that a victim relies on behave in un supportive or negative ways, the victim faces a longer, more difficult recovery process. These negative behaviors include worrying more about oneself that the victim, blaming the victim, withdrawing from the victim or behaving in a hostile manner, and attaching a stigma to the rape and demanding secrecy from the victim.

Myth:Rape trauma syndrome is a transient problem. Most healthy people will return to a normal state of functioning within a year.

Fact: Surviving a rape can lead a woman to a better understanding of her own strength, but rape is a life changing experience. Rape has a devastating effect on the mental health of victims, with nearly one-third (31%) of all rape victims developing Rape-related Post-traumatic Stress Disorder (RR-PTSD) some time in their lifetimes. More than one in ten rape victims currently suffer from RR-PTSD. (National Victim Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center)

Myth: Rapists are non-white. Rapists are lower class. Rapists are "Criminal types".

Fact: Rapists that fit the myth are more likely to be prosecuted but a rapist can be anyone: doctor, policeman, clergyman, social worker or corporate president.

Myth: Men can't be raped.

Fact: There were approximately 20,000 sexual assaults of males ages 12 and over in the United States in 1991. (Bureau of Justice statistics, 1992)

Myth: Incest is rare.

Fact: Incest is common and happens in every community. An estimated 77% of reported sexual abusers are parents (57% of the total being natural parents), 16% are other relatives, and 6% are non-related. In addition, males are reported to be the abusers in 60 to 95% of cases. (Thoringer, School Psychology Review, 17 (4):614-636)

Myth: Sexual assaults are rare deviations and affect few people. After all, no one I know has been raped.

Fact: Sexual assaults are very common. Most likely, someone close to you has been profoundly affected by sexual assault. Not only are victims reluctant to discuss their assaults but many succeed in totally blocking the assault from conscious memory. However, the trauma remains and may come to the surface at another crisis or when the opportunity to discuss it with a sympathetic person arises. An estimated 155,000 women were raped each year between 1973 and 1987. (U.S. Department of Justice, 1991)

Myth: Women often make false reports of rape.

Fact: According to FBI crime statistics, during the 1990s around 8 percent. The “unfounded” rate, or percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is higher for forcible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all Index crimes was 2 percent.

Myth: You can tell a rapist by the way he looks.

Fact: Rapists are not physically identifiable. They may appear friendly, normal, and non-threatening. Many are young, married and have children. Rapist types and traits however can be categorized.

Myth: Women fantasize about being raped.

Fact: No woman fantasizes about being raped. Fantasies about aggressive sex may be controlled and turned off if they become threatening. In rape, the victim is unable to control the violence and stop it.

Myth: A man can't rape his wife.

Fact: Many states now have laws against rape in marriage. The idea that a man can't rape his wife suggests married women do not have the same right to safety as do unmarried women. Most battered women have experienced some form of sexual abuse within their marriage. It is also known that estranged or ex-spouses sometimes use rape as a form of retaliation.

Myth: Only "bad" women get raped.

Fact: No other crime victim is looked upon with the degree of suspicion and doubt as a victim of rape. Although there are numerous reasons why society has cast blame on the victims of rape, a major reason found in studies is that of a feeling of self protection. If one believes that the victim was responsible because she put herself in an unsafe position, such as being out late at night, drinking alcohol, dressing in a certain way, or "leading on" the rapist, then we are able to feel safer because "we wouldn't do those things." But, the basic fact remains that without consent, no means no, no matter what the situation or circumstances.

Source

The Context of Rape and Sexual Assault
Historical Context
Women and Rape

Historically, violence against women has been associated with beliefs that women are not equal to men and therefore do not have the same rights. This was apparent, for example, in their lack of the rights to voting and education. In relation to marriage, women were regarded as property exchanged in marriage arrangements. Young women were seen as property of their father and when marrying, they became the property of their husband. Virginity was an integral part of this “property deal”. Until the fifteenth century, bride capture was seen as an acceptable way of acquiring a wife. After a man raped a woman he was able to take her as his wife. In ancient Babylonian society, the price of brides was lower if they were not virgins. If a daughter was raped before marriage, it was considered a crime against her father, as he would receive less money in the marriage deal.

The blame and responsibility that is frequently put on victims/survivors of rape and sexual assault can also be traced back to historical roots. Under Hebrew law, a woman who was raped within the city was stoned to death with the rapist, as the belief was that she could have escaped or screamed. If the rape occurred outside the city walls, it was assumed that her cries for help were unheard. Therefore the victim/survivor had to marry the rapist and her father was financially compensated. If she was already promised to another man, the rapist was stoned to death and the woman sold for a lower price. If the victim/survivor was married, it was considered adultery and she and the rapist were stoned to death.

Medieval common law in Britain had similar traditions: A woman who had been raped was required to cry and carry on and show torn clothing to men of good repute. If she failed to do this immediately, the allegation was dismissed and she was prosecuted for making a false allegation.
(Mason, 2001; Macleod, 2000; pubweb 1999)

Source

Megan's Law - Facts about Sex Offenders

Let us see how much we know-and see how much of what we think has been based on the myths we have all heard about sexual assault and sex offenders. Take 5 minutes to complete the True or False Quiz:

Most men who commit sexual offenses do not know their victim.
False. 90% of child victims know their offender, with almost half of the offenders being a family member. Of sexual assaults against people age 12 and up, approximately 80% of the victims know the offender.

Most sexual assaults are committed by someone of the same race as the victim.
True. Most sexual assaults are committed by someone of the same race as the victim. An exception to this is that people who commit sexual assault against Native Americans are usually not Native American (American Indians and Crime, 1999).

Most child sexual abusers use physical force or threat to gain compliance from their victims.
False. In the majority of cases, abusers gain access to their victims through deception and enticement, seldom using force. Abuse typically occurs within a long-term, ongoing relationship between the offender and victim and escalates over time.

Most child sexual abusers find their victims by frequenting such places as schoolyards and playgrounds.
False. Most child sexual abusers offend against children whom they know and with whom they have established a relationship. Many sexual assaults of adult women are considered "confidence rapes," in that the offender knows the victim and has used that familiarity to gain access to her.

Only men commit sexual assault.
False. While most sex offenders are male, sometimes sex offenses are committed by female offenders.

Child sexual abusers are only attracted to children and are not capable of appropriate sexual relationships.
False. While there is a small subset of child sexual abusers who are exclusively attracted to children, the majority of the individuals who sexually abuse children are (or have previously been) attracted to adults.

Victims of sexual assault are harmed only when offenders use force.
False. More than any physical injuries the victim sustains, the violation of trust that accompanies most sexual assaults has been shown to dramatically increase the level of trauma the victim suffers. Emotional and psychological injuries cause harm that can last much longer than physical wounds.

If a child does not tell anyone about the abuse, it is because he or she must have consented to it.
False. Children often do not tell for a variety of reasons including the offender's threats to hurt or kill someone the victim loves, as well as shame, embarrassment, wanting to protect the offender, feelings for the offender, fear of being held responsible or being punished, fear of being disbelieved, and fear of losing the offender who may be very important to the child or the child's family.

It is common for both child and adult victims of sexual assault to wait some time before telling someone about the abuse.
True. It is common for victims of sexual assault to wait some time before telling someone. When the person was assaulted as a child, he or she may wait years or decades. The reasons for this are numerous: victims may want to deny the fact that someone they trusted could do this to them; they may want to just put it behind them; they may believe the myth that they caused the assault by their behavior; or they may fear how other people will react to the truth.

Facts about sex offenders

Power Rapists – Goal to Humiliate
Power Reassurance (a.k.a. “gentleman rapist,” opportunity rapist, compensatory)

>Motivation

§ Insecure

§ To possess, not harm

§ Feels inadequacy with women – much self-doubt

§ Restore self-confidence

§ Confirmation of manhood – ensure she enjoyed it

§ Often done in conjunction with another crime

>The Attack

§ Method of Approach

· Blitz

· Peeping Tom’s (to pre-select victim)

§ Method of Attack

· Mainly verbal

· Threat of weapon, but often without having one, and any use of weapon will be one of opportunity

· 7-15 day cycle (biological clock)

>Behavior

§ Verbal

· Often socially awkward

· Reassures victim’s safety

· Will often attempt to instigate the victim to talk dirty to him, but he will rarely speak obscenely

· Complimentary

· Apologetic/expression of guilt

o “I won’t hurt you, I just want sex”

o “I want you to enjoy this, I’m sorry, I want anal sex, grab the lubricant because I don’t want to hurt you too much”

o “I’m sorry I don’t know why but I had to do this, tell me if I hurt you but do as I say because if you don’t it might hurt”

o “If you cooperate I will be your boyfriend, you are beautiful”

§ Sexual

· Attempts foreplay

· Involves victim in sexual activity

· Generally does not engage in alternate sexual practices, and if does, apologize to victim

· Often asks the victim to undress herself, like in a relationship

· Low aggression exhibited

· Unselfish

§ Physical

· Does not cause unnecessary harm

· Relies on threat of weapon for compliance

§ Modus Operandi (MO)

· Non-lethal

· Unorganized

· Selects victim in advance

· Victim in close proximity of rapist

· Attack for short period of time; longer with more compliance

§ Signature

· Contacts victim post attack

· Records attack

· Takes personal items from victim

· Often believes the experience was pleasurable for the victim

§ Personal Information

· Average education level is 10th grade

· Most often single and living with one or both parents

· Few friends and no sex partner

· Aggressive and possibly seductive mother

· Menial occupation; steady worker

· May be a transvestite, voyeuristic, exhibitionist, fetishist

· Interested in pornography

· Often unathletic and socially awkward

>Methods of Avoidance

§ Will tend to terminate the rape if victim resists

§ Most likely of all rapists to be dissuaded if scream, cry, plead, or fight

§ Could be dealing with power assertive rapist starting off with softer approach – do not want to upset that rapist type

§ Start off with nonviolent tactics – crying, pleading, praying aloud – if he becomes verbally abusive, you do not have a power reassurance rapist

§ If you can attack his conscience, or his weak point, the better luck for avoiding the rape

§ Do not attempt to “talk him out of it” – he will interpret that as your enjoying it, like in a relationship – you must use more angry and shocking tactics

§ With this type of rapist, fight; although he will occasionally have a weapon, it is generally an empty threat and he will not want to deal with an overly resistant victim

Rapist Types and Methods of Avoidance

Myth Women eventually relax and enjoy it. They secretly want to be raped

Fact There is a widely held belief that women enjoy rape or that it is 'just sex at the wrong time, in the wrong place'. Rape is a crime of sexual violence and humiliation which can involve being beaten, physical restraint, the use of knifes and sticks, urination and defecating. Studies have consistently shown that most rapes involve physical force to some degree. Often when a woman is raped she is afraid that she will be killed - rapists often use the threat of killing a woman or her children to ensure her 'submission' and her silence after the attack. Women do not enjoy sexual violence. Victims of murder, robbery and other crimes are never portrayed as enjoying the experience.

Myth Men of certain races and backgrounds are more likely to commit sexual violence.

Fact There is no typical rapist. Studies show that men who commit sexual violence come from every economic, ethnic, racial, age and social group. 85% of rapists are men known to their victims.


Myth Men who rape or sexually assault are mentally ill or monsters.

Fact Studies have indicated that as few as 5% of men are psychotic at the time of their crimes. Few convicted rapists are referred for psychiatric treatment.



Myth Men who rape are sexually frustrated / do not have the opportunity to have sex with a willing partner.

Fact Men who rape are as likely as any other man to be cohabiting or having a significant relationship with a woman. More than one in five women are raped by their partners or their husbands. Women who work as prostitutes or in the sex industry are usually dismissed as rape victims because of bias by the police, criminal justice system, juries and society in general.

Source


Another very informative site on this,
What You Should Know About Rape And Sexual Assault

 

[tkin]

Long post, good work.

I'd say ideal punishment is to cut their 'Stick' (not joking) and death only if the woman dies.

Death for rape without mortal injuries won't serve a thing, rather it will have two evil side effects, no 1. people will try to murder every rape victim to hide it, violence will increase, no 2. not all girls are saints, there are plenty of women out there who are just as evil as these men and they can use the ruse of rape to literally take a persons's life, now a days according to court ruling rape is not only defined by tests, even if tests come back negative the woman's account of the incident can be used to establish the rape, so in that accord death for rape can be used for evil purposes.

 

[rhitwick]

I find chemical castration the only viable option along with imprisonment of minimum 12-14 years.

Chemical castration is the administration of medication designed to reduce libido and sexual activity. Unlike surgical castration, where the testicles or ovaries are removed through an incision in the body,[1] chemical castration does not actually castrate the person, nor is it a form of sterilization.

From wiki

But, Imprisonment along with castration is not advised. Because if he's in prison, well...who cares if his libido is highest of his lifetime. but, after getting released may be getting mandatory treatment for chemical castration for next 5-7 years.

 

[Nerevarine]

Dont get me wrong, but discussing something like this is beyond pointless.. The ideal punishment should be death, nothing more than that.. We are just trying to vent our anger by discussing something like this.. IRL none of this will be true..

 

[nikufellow]

well there is no denying of the fact that rape is one of the most heinous of deeds a man could commit himself into btw the ideal punishment in any case shouldn't be passed by bending laws on account of how severe the particular instance of abuse is rather it should be purely within the constitutional realm . IMO if hanging to death or whatever is the max punition the penal code suggests - it should be implemented for we are living in a sovereign , secular , democratic republic ! I know my statements can be offensive to some who might think the culprits should be treated in harshest way imaginable but that is simply un practical and in humanitarian on any grounds . Bending laws on the basis of human sentiments is the last thing we want .

well there is no denying of the fact that rape is one of the most heinous of deeds a man could commit himself into btw the ideal punishment in any case shouldn't be passed by bending laws on account of how severe the particular instance of abuse is rather it should be purely within the constitutional realm . IMO if hanging to death or whatever is the max punition the penal code suggests - it should be implemented for we are living in a sovereign , secular , democratic republic ! I know my statements can be offensive to some who might think the culprits should be treated in harshest way imaginable but that is simply un practical and in humanitarian on any grounds . Bending laws on the basis of human sentiments is the last thing we want .

 

[Faun]

Wall of text, dude. There is no better punishment than the rapist realizing what he has done. He will probably ask for death himself or commit suicide.

Prevention is better than cure. Make the society educated.

 

[rhitwick]

Educate the society: About what and how? Don't you think people already know what is right or wrong? Or the rapists thought they were doing some favor to the victim by mating with her!

Educating is required along with strict law. But, what most we need is to get into the minds of rapists. We need to know why they do it what they do. Profiling and then may be including some chapters in sex education books based on this research.

 

[Faun]

Yeah, educate the society. There wont be need of strict laws if people are honest and truthful.

 

[Flash]

+ Conscience.

Every act of humans, drill down to the conscience.

Education is just a way of acquiring good & moral conscience, say on the onset of adulthood.
But on the longtime, it's the environment & parents, that can MAKE or BREAK a person.

Unless people behave well by themselves, even the STRICT laws won't intimidate them!
So, i can't really comment over ideal punishment.

But my basic opinion is to "Give these men a punishment, that will incite FEAR to those who thought of doing the same in future".

 

[CommanderShawnzer]

Give these men a punishment, that will incite FEAR to those who thought of doing the same in future"
Amen.

 

[Anorion]

people have a choice. more people can be pickpockets, or travel ticketless on trains. people choose not to do this. stricter laws by themselves won't help at all, we have a failure of the legal system here, there's plenty of precedent where rape has been tried under outraging modesty of women, or crime against nature or some other provision, where the sentence is lesser than the 7 years. rape actually has a very narrow definition here... old story here. basically, only forced vaginal penetration has been considered rape by the courts in india. apart from the sentences themselves, we need better legal definitions for different kinds of sexual abuses, including gang rape, or war rape. does not matter if the rape sentence is 20 years, castration, public shaming, or life imprisonment, or death... they fail to have a meaning when you cannot expect to file a police complaint without facing further abuse. attempting to change the laws after a crime has been committed shows that the legal system has totally failed, served no purpose being there in the first place. as long as people can expect it to be implemented uniformly, the actual punishment is of little relevance... as long as it is punishment. And society as a whole should stop looking the other way. It's our own shame we are trying to hide here.
one possible solution is a ticketing system, similar to traffic offenses, where you get an infraction for every comment, every stare, collect too many of those and you go to lockup right away. collect these from public sms.
sexual abuse has much simpler forms, a young kid can be traumatized by the under dressed loon who bends over and flashes his bum by mistake... when people are scared of that happening, and can be tried for that, we have effective laws
totally blame indian culture here, rape is hilarious
just check out Love Like You've Never Been Hurt, Rape Like Nobody's Watching
in short... yeah, education

 

[Anish]

There must be a major revision in Indian Laws. Police force must operate independently without political interference.

 

[Flash]

^ But, what's the political interference here?

 

[doomgiver]

^ But, what's the political interference here?

to police effectively, more effort is needed, requiring the pig to work harder/reduce hafta-vasooli time
more policing = more criminals caught, resulting in increase of "official" crimes done/recorded
this means -ve publicity on the netas/sdo's or whatever
also, many criminals are well known to the police.

do you think these criminals have brains???? they rule via money and influence.

 

[Flash]

This happened in south india, but the media din't boom this.
Seems, all of them concentrate only in our capital.

Rape of 11-year-old sparks protests in TN

 

[tkin]

This happened in south india, but the media din't boom this.
Seems, all of them concentrate only in our capital.

Rape of 11-year-old sparks protests in TN

Always, this year a girl was raped severely in Park Street kolkata, the media(read Anandabazaar/telegraph and all other ABP group media outlets), under pressure from politicians actively downplayed the act, the best detective in crime branch Dayamanti Sen(who being an woman better suited for these cases) was humiliated and demoted when she refused to bend to the politicians will to downplay the investigation, the CM said it was fake and just today a MLA(who also an woman) declared the victim to be a prostitute(which was never mentioned before) thereby effectively declaring "In West Bengal prostitutes can be legally raped." See where we live in? Its high time something happens to India, like foreign attack, or an uprising, the govt needs to be overthrown, period. Its better to lose independence then live under this false motion of such.

 

[rhitwick]

Coming to ontopic, i.e. solution...

Many here are are recommending to educate society. But, how do you do it? Society is not a person that you capture him/her and then force feed the moral of right and wrong. We make society or we are society. Have you any suggestion for that?

And, none here seems to agree on a particular punishment for such offenders.

b/w anyone up for this? (Refer the attachment)

 

[Faun]

^^Those who already have links with netas and police will never get into trial and may continue to indulge in rape. The severity of punishment may encourage the average rapist to turn murderer too.

Educating society is in the hand of society, the governing body and the law enforcers. Our government is a total failure, only seeking out their vested interests and short term goals. Was there any need to transfer the patient to Singapore ? 6 hour flight itself led to massive decrease in blood pressure of the patient. It was their way of damage control. Put the blame on singapore doctors and blare out that they even sent the patient to singapore spending so many dollar.

To be frank, I don't know the answer as an average man to your question unless someone make me prime minister to set things right. I can only do my bit of educating people who are near me. It will take more time to change the mentality of people.

Punishment to the offenders is of least relevance to me. Give them death, castrate them, burn them, drown them, electrocute them or guillotine them, doesn't matter. Vengeance changes the vengeful mind.


It seems money can buy anything here and can get you out of any situation against you.

 

[Anorion]

yeah read that in the newspaper, the laws didn't deter the rapists, and those are the only laws they are going to be tried under, not the new ones

it's not just the laws themselves, it is how they are enforced

For example, in the Major singh, AIR 1967 SC 63 case, where the accused walked into the room where a female child of seven and a half months was sleeping and committed an indecent assault he was held to have committed an offence under section 354 as he had outraged and intended to outrage the modesty of the victim, that is legalspeek for "not rape".

In a judgement sakshi versus Union of India, a public interest litigation, a sexual offence was charged under 354 (Assault or criminal force on a woman with intent to outrage her modesty : 2 years), and not under 375, (rape : seven years), so as to 'not confuse the public'.

no one has told the Indian judiciary about OP's first post

the 172nd law comission report, addresses all these issues, and already recommends the kinds of changes people want to see in the law, it has been hanging around in limbo since 2000

in any case, laws are not the solution, fix the gender ratio, allow women to be born and live first, the problem is right there

 

[Vignesh B]

Ideal punishment? That itself sounds like an oxymoron.
Not criticizing the OP, infact quite a good post.
I remember reading in The Hindu a few days back that majority(above 85%, I think or it is even more) of rape case offenders are known people like father, neighbours, family members etc. I don't think anyone will like to have their near and dear ones to be awarded capital punishment no matter how heinous the crime is. Am not supporting the offenders, in fact there is no denying the barbaric actions. Out of anger one might say hang him or stuffs like that but that is not going to help in the longer run. Who is going to support his family?
Rather provide assistance and make the offender himself feel the guilt and the height of his crime. Open clinics where such people are made to understand the worth of a woman, how to safeguard their sisters rather than ambushing them.

do you think these criminals have brains???? they rule via money and influence.

This.

To be frank, I don't know the answer as an average man to your question unless someone make me prime minister to set things right. I can only do my bit of educating people who are near me. It will take more time to change the mentality of people.

Punishment to the offenders is of least relevance to me. Give them death, castrate them, burn them, drown them, electrocute them or guillotine them, doesn't matter. Vengeance changes the vengeful mind.


It seems money can buy anything here and can get you out of any situation against you.

Well said.