BJP vs Congress !!

Who will you vote in next LS elections

  • BJP

    Votes: 51 51.0%
  • Congress

    Votes: 34 34.0%
  • I will sit lame @ home..

    Votes: 15 15.0%

  • Total voters
    100
Status
Not open for further replies.

karnivore

in your face..
^^thats y I have created this debate so that we all know the unknown things....

now explain to me what are Debt securities ???
and what has UCC has to do with HMA and HUF? Please explain in DETAIL ...

how communism is failed ? Isnt US now feary of China progress and growth :)

I found an interesting piece of code frm wiki about UCC :

Muslims are also funded for the Hajj, a pilgrimage to Mecca and subsidies for their religious schools (Madrassas). On one hand, Government of India provides subsidy to Muslim to perform Haj; on other hand, Government of India bound them to fly through government airlines and also gets subsidy from Saudi Arabia for services providing to Indian Muslims,

whereas Hindus claim they are accorded no similar privilege for their own pilgrimages or religious schools by the Government of India. Not only are Hindus not accorded any special privileges despite being the majority, they are even made to pay for subsidies to Muslims and Christians pilgrimages and religious education.

Christians are also given separate standards for divorce—which is more difficult for them than it is for Hindus.
Lets see if I can answer some of your questions.

Debt security: Lets assume A ltd needs some fund. It can raise that by breaking its ownership into tiny pieces called shares and sell them to investors. Additionally, for a better leverage, it can raise loans. It can raise loans from banks, but then, it will have to abide by all the terms and conditions of the banks. One way to avoid the banking route, is to issue debt securities. An investor buying such security, is actually lending money to A Ltd, but on terms and conditions of the company. The investor will be guaranteed a fixed payment (interest) irrespective of financial condition of the company. Now debt instrument can be of various types and I am not going into the detail. I would mention one point though. The debt securities have a life (perpetual debt securities are banned in India). This means after the expiry of a time period, the money will have to be refunded to the investor, and in the meanwhile he will be paid interest. Govt. too raises money this way.

UCC vis-a-vis HMA/HUF: UCC has nothing to do with these acts. These acts have a lot to do with UCC. If UCC is implemented, then there will be no separate act for individual religious group. HMA/HUF come under Civil Code. Therefore, these will be repealed, as will be Sharia. Mitakshara and Dayabhanga philosophies will be defunct. etc etc.

Communism is failed theory ? Yes it is. Little of what is happening in Chinese economy has anything to do with communism. Communism there is nothing but a sign board.

Subsidy to religious pilgrimage: This unconstitutional. This is a secular country and govt. can't do anything to promote a particular religion. After Babri Masjid, Narhasima Rao started giving subsidy to the Haj pilgrims, clearly to mollycoddle the community. The muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan don't give subsidy, because it is against Sharia and these countries have adopted Sharia.

Pilgrimage to Kailash-Manash Sarovar will earn a hindu a pretty good subsidy, depending upon which state you live in. UP and Gujrat provide subsidy. Delhi residents get subsidy. There is a gerneral subsidy given via Kumaon Mandal Vikas Nigam as well.
 

Pathik

Google Bot
I don't know why the government is buffering the social costs of owning a vehicle. If oil costs so much to the governments, the people with vehicles should bear the total costs of the oil. This means that a lot of people will opt for public transport, which is good for the economy and the ecology. The parking costs of vehicles in metropolitan cities are rediculously low. In fact, they are free in many places. Look at the prime location parking rates in cities like New York, London, Sydney or Tokyo, and you will know how little people owning vehicles are actually paying up.

I completely agree with that. I dont mind paying a few extra bucks for petrol. The Govt should not subsidize petrol for everyone, but only for those who can't afford it. If petrol becomes costlier then we will have to adopt alternative measures - the cheaper eco-friendly ones.

Hmmm, can't really agree there Pathik. If you're given the option of getting whipped by a cane or a whiplash, or not getting whipped at all, what would you choose?

Anyway, these parties are bloodsuckers anyway. In any case, they're only interested in narrow minded appeasement of someone/thing or another. Anyhow, if I feel like I'd be whipped more or less by someone, I can choose to show my dissent that I wouldn't liked to be whipped by anyone.

Sree, but not getting whipped at all won't kick out the people bearing the whip in the first place. Wouldn't it be better if you get whipped once but atleast kick out the whip-bearers.

Atleast the parties will be forced to field better candidates if there is a majority NO VOTE.
 
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OP
esumitkumar

esumitkumar

Call me Sumit
See? This is why no political party, good or bad, can help us(I'm not accusing madjeri)! This is not different from the kick-all-non-maharashtris campaign of Mr. Thackeray(I still didn't spell it right eh? To hell with it!). Even if he does live in the US, he is still a member of this forum and free to express his views and discuss anything! When will people understand that the world is not limited by international boundaries(let alone state boundaries!).

Thanks Alexey..but how many times I have to clarify that IM JUST TO US on a SHORT TRIP and I m coming in few days..:rolleyes:

U ppl are thinking I have immigrated to US and thats why I dont understand ground issue.. :lol: and just for the heck for it..I have created this issue :-x

ITS NOT LIKE THAT...Wherever I live or have been doesnt matter, I will remain Indian at my heart always
 

mediator

Technomancer
Talking of UCC, Muslims in India can marry only 4 wives and that is because it is upper limit as per their religious book, i.e, Quran. There is no upper limit of wives in Hinduism. Shri Krishna had 16108 wives, Raja Dasrath (father of Shri Rama) had 4 wives. And not even polygamy, Hindusim even had polygney, Drapaudi had 4 husbands.

Now since there is no limitation of wives as per hindu scriptures, the Hindu Marriage act was formed to protect the rights of the poor woman so that her husband can't cheat on her.

In muslim faith, more than 1 wife means giving equal rights to each wife (otherwise the wife can ask for nullification of marriage). Not that u have one gharwali and a hidden baharwali. And its not easy, its not that damn easy. Even having one wife is difficult, forget about 2, 3 or 4 wives.

Morever, if u feel sorry 'NOT' to enjoy having 4 wives, then the same Indian law gives you full athourity to change your religion and enjoy the 'privilages' gieven to people of other faith

Ironically, As per the 1975 census of India Hindus are more polygynous than Muslims. The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims.

Talking of Ram Mandir issue, lets analyse who made it an issue? Isn't it BJP who made this issue and issue in the first place. See, what Swami Agnivesh ( a 'H-I-N-D-U') from from Arya Samaj has to say about the Ram Mandir issue "There are already more than 100 Ram temples at Ayodhya. Of these, 15 are 'birthplace temples' of Ram, marking the site where he was supposed to have been born. And if you go to any of these the priest will tell you that his temple is more authentic than the others. And yet the VHP and others are clamoring for a 16th temple at a site that used to be a mosque."

Published in TIME magazine, read it here
*www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,100748,00.html

Now, talking of eating cow. There is no problem if a person wants to remains vegetarian. No Indian law is forcing a veg - to non-veg. But if you insists these 'poor and simple' creatures of Mother Earth shouldn't be killed, then presumably your arguement is nothing but derived out of Blind biasness. Its better you read Hindu scriptures to say such a statement because then you have criticise the revered figures in Hinduism who indulged in killing those 'simple and innocent' creatures of Mother earth.

It is mentioned in Manu Smruti, the law book of Hindus, in chapter 5 verse 30
“The eater who eats the flesh of those to be eaten does nothing bad,
even if he does it day after day, for God himself created some to be eaten
and some to be eater.”

Again next verse of Manu Smruti, that is, chapter 5 verse 31 says
“Eating meat is right for the sacrifice, this is traditionally known as a rule of
the gods.”

Further in Manu Smruti chapter 5 verse 39 and 40 says
“God himself created sacrificial animals for sacrifice, ... , therefore killing in
a sacrifice is not killing.”

Mahabharata Anushashan Parva chapter 88 narrates the discussion between Dharmaraj Yudhishthira and Pitamah Bhishma about what food one should offer to Pitris (ancestors) during the Shraddha (ceremony of dead) to keep them satisfied. Paragraph reads as follows: “Yudhishthira said, “O thou of great puissance, tell me what that object is which, if dedicated to the Pitiris (dead ancestors), become inexhaustible! What Havi, again, (if offered) lasts for all time? What, indeed, is that which (if presented) becomes eternal?” “Bhishma said, “Listen to me, O Yudhishthira, what those Havis are which persons conversant with the rituals of the Shraddha (the ceremony of dead) regard as suitable in view of Shraddha and what the fruits are that attach to each. With sesame seeds and rice and barely and Masha and water and roots and fruits, if given at Shraddhas, the pitris, O king, remain gratified for the period of a month. With fishes offered at Shraddhas, the pitris remain gratified for a period of two months. With the mutton they remain gratified for three months and with the hare for four months, with the flesh of the goat for five months, with the bacon (meat of pig) for six months, and with the flesh of birds for seven. With venison obtained from those deer that are called Prishata, they remain gratified for eight months, and with that obtained from the Ruru for nine months, and with the meat of Gavaya for ten months, With the meat of the bufffalo their gratification lasts for eleven months. With beef presented at the Shraddha, their gratification, it is said, lasts for a full year. Payasa mixed with ghee is as much acceptable to the pitris as beef. With the meat of Vadhrinasa (a large bull) the gratification of pitris lasts for twelve years. the flesh of rhinoceros, offered to the pitris on anniversaries of the lunar days on which they died, becomes inexhaustible. The potherb called Kalaska, the petals of kanchana flower, and meat of (red) goat also, thus offered, prove inexhaustible. So but natural if you want to keep your ancestors satisfied forever, you should serve them the meat of red goat.

Now regarding the Bomb Blasts, this is what Assam Government has to say

ULFA may be behind serial blasts, says Assam govt
*timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ULFA_m...lasts_says_Assam_govt/articleshow/3654610.cms

See, this is what BJP has does. Creating extreme hatred and politics of Divide and rule, fully borrowed from Queen of England. This is why people like you are so mind-controlled and think in only one direction.

I personally don't suport anyone, BJP, Congress or Communist. (Talking of SP, Mulayam Singh openly declared in parliament that he support Muslims because he is interested in Muslim votes)Yet, i support an ideology which doesn't believe in invoking racial, cultural, regional or religious biasness to attract its vote bank.

I support an ideology which believes that development issues should be in top priority in its agenda, and development not only of tier A cities, but of remote villages.

The rosy pictures of Indian metros is just an illusion, the real India is the rural India. Which is having the maximum population and requires the maximum overall development.

few days back, i attended a presentation by a NGO Goonj working for flood relief in Bihar and other under developed villages under its clothes for work program. They gave me a shocking fact that there are hundred and thousands of women in India who don't have a proper cloth to cover themselves during menses. Sometimes two women interchange the soiled clothes. Major level of pregnancy deaths in rural sector is due to lack of sanitation.

There are even a group of 'Untouchables' in India in Madhya Pradesh who are called MushakBhashi. They live on catching and eating RATS.

I am not a volunteer of Goonj or any other NGO, these points were fresh in my mind so i just mentioned.

Why a hungary soul needs anything else but food? Why a naked body, need anything more than a piece of cloth.

Divide and conquer is the motto. And as long as people continue to see themselves as separate from everything else they lend themselves to be completely enslaved.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. - Jimi Hendrix
Obviously u r not a hindu or else u might have known that Hinduism has its 'base' in Vedas. Also u would have known that many of the quotes from manusmriti are in direct violation with Vedas and many don't even have a mention. Further you would know that Hindus, whose 'law book' u mentioned, isn't much of relevance today!! You must understand that it doesn't enjoy the same privilege that Muslims do where Maulvis, Maulanas make/bend/ammend rulez to fit themselves! To the least, it doesn't even state that there exists any religion called "Hinduism" and to embrace it or to kill kaafirs or practise stewpid circumcision! I understand many of the slokas that u quoted were copied and pasted from some stewpid ISLAMIC site which discusses and compares other religion to show itself corrected (like some politic game), which again is based on Zakir Nayar's notorious 'misleading mistranslations', which further is based on the apalling work of Max Mueller and other Christian missionaries!! :)
So before you start hitting back, do your research well! Understand the status of Manusmriti, understand the real slokas and understand the misery of these ISLAMIC sites and Zakir Nair which have only one funny motto - 'East or West, ISLAM is the best'! :oops:

Regarding no. of wives, Hinduism is silent on it! Its fine if some laws want to limit it with 1:1 ratio. Exceptional cases like draupadi etc desn't give ISLAM a right to limit it to 4, if thats what you r saying. Why four? Any logical explanation? Why not 5 or 2 or 100? Its funny when you answer giving explanation that ISLAM prescribes such a medication. It gives a picture that the believers are a lump of chumps, and don't even question what the scriptures say!! Hadiths tells you to circumcise and so u circumcise, ISLAM tell u to make women wear burqa and so the women wear burqa etc etc! Now ISLAM has become a deciding factor for women's wear! And the reason most Muslims give, 'that pervertness resides in man'. Well, doesn't ISLAM teach anything to control that pervertness? Also if it can give a limit of 4, then why can't it limit the number of children one can have? And we hear the imbecile Bukhari of Jama Masjid who has so many criminal cases against him say that 'Allah has allowed us to produce as many'. I hope you read newspapers daily! Start this discussion of family planning the next time you goto a mosque or with some hardcore muslims or maulanas just for fun. So you must understand that I can go on and on endlessly to remove your misconceptions. It would be better if you do it your own way by reading the original scriptures and not some distorted ones.

Now coming back, this discussion is about votes, political parties and not religious discussions on which is better and which one is flawed! I guess all the funds for Mecca/Madina or even Hindu places should be abolished. I would have favoured it if they were funding for any Hindu religious place in US/Europe/Australia etc. Just kidding. But, who doesn't want to tour the world u know. :D
Also, they should stop the construction of further religious places for people don't have houses to live in and others are donating on jewellery for gods, construction & decoration of religious places, the money which can be used to build a school, and feed many physically and mentally, instead and give sound primary eduation to the poor which further can become a straight solution for the crappy reservation system.

@srivirus : Why don't you give a chance to Shiv Khera as u seem to be frustrated like me and disgusted with the present politicians.
 
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karnivore

in your face..
Vivekanda, one of our favourite poster boys for vedas, thought vedas professed cow slaughter and beef eating.
The Vedas have two parts, mandatory and optional. The mandatory injunctions are eternally binding on us and constitute the Hindu religion. The optional ones are not so. The brahmins at one time ate beef andmarried shudras. A calf was killed to please the guest. Shudras cooked for brahmins. The food cooked by a male brahmin was considered as polluted food.

In Pilibit in January of 1901, the swami (i.e. Vivekanda) adduced facts and authorities from the Vedas and the Samhitas in proof of his claim [that] even the Vedic rishis ate, and enjoined upon others, to eat beef, the very name of which is not offensive to the ears of orthodox Hindus. In the old Vedic period it was the practice to kill cows in honor of guests and at certain ceremonies and on auspicious occasions, and he supported his remarks by dilating on the evils that had accrued in the degeneracy of the Hindu race through the fanaticism of anti- meat-eating and the deshacharas and lokacharas [local customs] of the so-called orthodoxists.
Source (Italics in bracket are mine so is the emphasis.)

Some other random references from Rig Veda (in no particular order)
V.29.7; VI.17.11; VIII.12.8; VIII. 43.11; X.14-18; X.27.2; X.28.3; X.86.14; X.91.14

There are several other references scattered through out the vedas. But I will stop here, because this has the potential to spiral out of control and derail the thread.
 

m-jeri

Caballero de Real Madrid
@ esumitkumar...

first u need to get ur frikking mind ready for some arguments before posting a thread like this...stop whining like a sissy...

then try to understand the fellow ppl than bashing others...as u can clearly see from ALL OTHER posters... they either do not support any parties... or do not support bjp..
why?... they want their nation to be tolerant...

U say Congress is promoting itself by holding up the minorities..agreed...atleast they are try to do..so ur take is that only one religion be given importance???

stop being so narrow minded and stupid like them... if you are a educated fellow i dont see why u support this crap and even intd abt a topic like politics...

In a nation like india u see politicians in flesh only during campaigns..other times they are very busy doing things for their personal benefit.. 60 years of independence and if u still dont understand then u will never..

Learn to be a tolerant fellow. allow others to grow too. You will never be trampled by the minorities ...
 

mediator

Technomancer
Vivekanda, one of our favourite poster boys for vedas, thought vedas professed cow slaughter and beef eating.
Source (Italics in bracket are mine so is the emphasis.)

Some other random references from Rig Veda (in no particular order)
V.29.7; VI.17.11; VIII.12.8; VIII. 43.11; X.14-18; X.27.2; X.28.3; X.86.14; X.91.14

There are several other references scattered through out the vedas. But I will stop here, because this has the potential to spiral out of control and derail the thread.
I understand. There has been so much distortion! Then, I read the notorious sacred-texts.com n I was flabbergasted! First we have already lost a lot of text on Vedas over the period of time and now they distort and mislead on the remaining! WTH :oops:
 

nix

Senior Member
its no use voting for BJP. because its impossible for anybody to change india now. its too late. the future is bleak, we need to do something about this population explosion and illegal immigration issue.

the problem is democracy, as anorion said. problem is you gotta please people to get votes, and there is always going to be some people against, so you wont get their votes. you cannot implement policies which are necessary, but not favored.

this is happening in USA too. right now. illegal immigration used to be an issue in USA but now, no one touches it. niether obama or mccain are willing to talk about it coz they may lose the mexican vote. one day there will be more mexicans in america than mexico. those people tough on illegal immigrants are viewed as racist. :(
 

karnivore

in your face..
I understand. There has been so much distortion! Then, I read the notorious sacred-texts.com n I was flabbergasted! First we have already lost a lot of text on Vedas over the period of time and now they distort and mislead on the remaining! WTH :oops:
I am not sure how much of B.D.Ukhal's (an Arya Swamji) word can be taken seriously. First, he uses Dawananda Saraswati's translation. Dawananda Saraswati was notorious for his "Go back to vedas" call and "No error in vedas" posit. He was notorious for his virulent diatribe against Islam and Christianity. If, 19th Century Western scholars were guilty of mistranslating the ancient texts, because of their prejudice to their own religion, then it begs a question - why Dawananda Saraswati would not be considered biased as well. After all he was a Hindu sanyasi. Also, did he have the expertise to accurately translate the anciet sanskrit, which required not only thorough understanding of Paninian rules (which presumably he lacked), but also, a fair amount of Avestan and Mittani grammer as well (These are precisely the reason, why many translation of Muller, Monier-Williams, Wilson etc, turned out to be eronous. The lack of knowledge of the related languages). No self respecting scholar considers his translations as worthy of any acedamic references. But Mr Ukhal is an Arya Swamaji. He is left with no choice. Also note carefully, other than Sw. Dawananda, he uses Sw. Satya Prakash's work, who is also a follower of Dawanda and an Arya Swamaji. No references from outside Arya Swamaj.

Second, he constantly uses H.H. Wilson's translations to pick his bone. This is grossly odd. A far better and more recent body of work on TRANSLATION of vedic texts exists. It gives the impression that he has deliberately done so, because, the errors made by these authors are well know and are easy to reference. Its like flogging a dead horse and doing a victory lap. Also, remember, no translation is perfect, and no body has attempted at complete translation. If a translation is rejected then reasons must be given. And no, christian prejudice is not a good enough reason, because the same reason can be given, i.e. hindu prejudice to reject works by Indian scholars (Sw Dayananda or Sw Satya Prakash, in any case, had no expertise in these matters. And no, just being a hindu sanyasi, or knowing sanskrit is not enough to translate these texts.)

Mr Ukhul's failure to provide scholarly references, which are free from religious overtones, and failure to use more modern and better translation to compare to, makes his criticism a farce. Even other hindu apologists rarely make references to Dayananda's translation because of silly mistakes that he had made in interpreting some slokas. Making an offender, to be the judge of his offense, is probably not a very wise move.

May be it won't be out of place to note, B.D.Ukhul is an ex-librarian. I am not sure, how an ex-librarian's word becomes authority over a professional historian, a.k.a D.N. Jha. In Part I of the rejoinder he paraphrases a quote of Macaulay, which Macaulay hadn't actually said. How much can an author be trusted who can't even cross check ?

I think this is the beginning of the derailment of the thread.
 

sreevirus

Certified Nutz
Sree, but not getting whipped at all won't kick out the people bearing the whip in the first place. Wouldn't it be better if you get whipped once but atleast kick out the whip-bearers.

Atleast the parties will be forced to field better candidates if there is a majority NO VOTE.
I don't see how. This is a democracy, isn't it? Just as I have been given the right to vote, I also have the right to not vote.

Let me put it this way. Suppose there are 9 people, all different, including me, who have the right to vote (or not to vote). We have two parties, Party A and Party B vying for the government.

Party A has an agenda to build a temple, get more jobs for people of some particular region, etc. Party B has plans to give subsidies for pilgrimage to people of some religion, reservation of jobs for a certain sect, etc. Throw in the usual rhetorics like development of the country, industrialization, electrification, blah blah blah...

5 out of 9 people think Party A will be beneficial for them, so they vote for Party A. 3 out of the remaining 4 think Party B will be effective for them. Now I think that major agendas of both Parties A and B are bullshit and would be consequentially bad later. I don't want either of the Parties to come into power and implement their plans. So where does that leave me? I don't thing any of the people in either parties will be effective leaders and I want neither of those parties to be elected. So I choose to exercise my right to not vote.

@srivirus : Why don't you give a chance to Shiv Khera as u seem to be frustrated like me and disgusted with the present politicians.
Sorry, but I've never heard of that person. Just read about that party from your link.

-----

BTW, personal opinion: I think both BJP and the Congress are flawed in their own unique ways. I also think the elected leaders should be neutral and not have agendas for the appeasement of the people belonging to a particular religion/caste/sect/region/community. But I guess that can only happen in Utopia. Also, laws made should never be ever influenced by the verses in any religious books. Religion is a person's personal matter, and it should not be something to be taken in the public domain.

I'm an atheist and that makes me non-religious. If parties are going to make laws on what I should eat or how I should live my life according to the terms in a book that I have no belief in, I wouldn't want to vote anyway.
 
OP
esumitkumar

esumitkumar

Call me Sumit
^^karnivore ..yes u rite..but can u tell me what knowledge is needed prior to study vedas :confused:

@MADJERI

It seems that u urself are a minority..thats y ur so biased abt ur views ;)
and second thing man I dont have anything against minority ..

What I want is we should be Indians first irrespective of whats our religion...
Thats y I was even opposing krazzy on that Raj chutzpah ...

Congress is promoting pseudo secularism and u blame BJP is promoting Hindutva..I think u havent read even Muslims vote for Narendra Modi in GJ :p
and also being a responsible citizen of India how can you not be intrstd in politics ????? ..U urself has a narrow minded and STUPID thinking ...that Congress is promoting the peace in India ..see the peace results..Why all terrorist organisations are exploding bombs everywhere in UPA regime if they are happy that Congress takes well care of Muslims ???

and ya Im never trampled by minority , may be ur trampled by some majority eh in past ? I have many Muslim close frnds and they are my frnds .. I go to their home @ Eid and they come to my home @ Holi and Diwali and we all have lots of fun :D. I dont need to prove it to anybody !

and u saying wats done in 60 years ??..remember all the major 55 years were ruled by Congress :D

@T159..which is duty and which is freedom ? BJP= duty , Cong= Freedom or the other way ?

@nix..have u read in Obama's web about Immigration ? Read it
*www.barackobama.com/issues/immigration/

I am a big supporter of OBAMA ..at least Pak sponsored terrorism will be less than :)
 

mediator

Technomancer
@karnivore : U must understand how much destruction has been done during the mughal period and the Bitish era to the Vedas, temples, women raped, people slaughtered and converted. With so much to witness any Hindu would fume! But I don't know if thats the reason he had such a 'diatribe against Islam and Christianity'. Hindus have forgottten all that. But to this date, mistranlations, false notions etc about the Hindu scriptures are still looming at large! After discussing with you & @srivirus, I came to know that such distortions exist. I thought 'sacred-texts.com' is reliable. Many today still think its reliable. People like Zakir Nair inferring the sanskrit word 'MohMaghda' as "Mohammed" and thinking "Mohemmed" is mentioned in Hindu scriptures. Little he knows that "MohMaghda" means one who is "materialistic" and "has surrendered to worldy pleasures". The situation becomes more grave when others use such a definition to show how inferior other religion is compared to their own. If you know Sanskrit then you would understand the rulez behind, how scientific it is. Its not like English where one word can have an ambigious meaning, "you" can mean someone of same age, younger or elder or generating some respect. In Sanskrit, even a "vibhakti", "chin" or "halanth" can change the meaning of the word completely. It would be useless if you play a critic of Vedas without knowing anything about Sanskrit in the first place. You were putting up the slokas that were mistranslated by christian missionaries. Now you have grudge against "Dawananda Saraswati" just because he had something against ISLAM or christianity & was calling for Vedas?

Its not a question of being biased, but, the correct translation of the slokas. I beg to differ. The translation can be perfect!! But if and only if you know sanskrit well enough. I used to be a Sanskrit Student and thats why I can proudly tell you all of this. If you learn some Sanskrit sometime, then try urself with Zakir nair's work as an exercise! You'll urself find many errors easily. I think the main issue with you is of translation. So what can you do? Still criticize the Vedas? But if you look in the link I gave, you'll find where the error is and in what part!

So I think its better to stop criticizing and learn ourself what is really written and may be then, perhaps, we can criticize on whats written. Some help from a Sankrit scholar would be nice. Don't u think so? We shouldn't let the mistranlations and damages go to another new higher level.

Neways, even if some beef eating were to be mentioned and that sacrifices were done to please some demigods, then also I would have questioned it and considered it outdated. Just like "science", I don't consider Vedas "free of errors"! But the destruction, as discussed, has to stop. I agree that its not wise to derail it any further. So lets stop and discuss this thread shall we?? :)

@srivirus : He is the author of the bestseller "You can win".......a must read for everybody !!!
 

nix

Senior Member
@esumitkumar: every candidate is supposed to say that he opposes illegal immigration, but you cant deny the fact they are skirting the issue. you also cant deny the fact that, concrete steps are not being taken to secure US borders. there's is little talk and zero action on that issue.

i think that way mitt romney would be a better person to be president of US.
 
OP
esumitkumar

esumitkumar

Call me Sumit
^^hmm..but I had read in "USA Today" some days ago that illegal immigration in US had decreased as compared to prev year ???

Also can u enlighten that suppose Mr A frm Mexico illegaly enters US..how does he find job ? cuz every employer in US wants work visa ? how can he do any job and live here illegally ?
 

anispace

dattebayo
^^ they dont get white collar jobs dude. They work as servants, butlers, cooks, car mechanics and other such low profile jobs.
 

karnivore

in your face..
esumitkumar said:
...can u tell me what knowledge is needed prior to study vedas
Nothing really. But if you don't want to read translations, then you have to know sanskrit - thoroughly. Even then you will be reading some translation or the other - from vedic sanskrit to classical sanskrit. But translating vedic texts is a different ball game, because, the language in which these are written is not the classical sanskrit that you learn in high school.

Panini was the one who laid down the first rules of sanskrit which went through correction by Sayana. Over time, sanskrit acquired various regional loan words and took the shape that it is today. (May be I should mention here, that Mahbharata and Ramayana are written in a language that appears a little different than Paninian sanskrit, because of the use of prakrit). When Panini was laying these rules, many of the rules of grammar that governed vedic sanskrit were dead due to non use. Use of many foreign loan words had, by that time, vanished from lexicon, leaving blank spaces within the vedic verses.

Current day scholars, when they attempt to translate these vedic verses, they do not solely depend on Paninian rules. They have to look around into the then contemporary texts or languages. Avestan and Mittani have strong influence on sanskrit. Previously these linguistic connections were not that well known, or for some reason ignored. No longer. That is why I would suggest one to use recent translations. Griffit, Monier-Williams, Wilson, Bloomfield etc are all outdated. No serious scholar uses them in any serious acedamic way.

@mediator

I do agree with you that Indian history has, unfortunately, never got the serious objective attention that it deserved, at least till mid 50s to early 60s. There have been wrong or eronous interpretations, intentional or otherwise, of texts. The problem is, then it used to be the western scholars, and now it is our home grown scholars.

Now Zakier Nair is an example of intentional misinterpretation and frankly, I don't give a rodent's behind to what that moron says about anything. (His work on Islamic texts are however pretty good). I will only politely ask you to stay away from Zakir Nair. He is not an authority on sanskrit and is certainly not on vedas.

I have said this before, and I will say this again. We can't use today's sanskrit to interpret 2000+ years old sanskrit. This is because of something called period bias that results from the evolution of language. I will give one example. The word "samudra" today means ocean. But in vedic verses it is used not only as ocean, but also as collection of lakes and also a "heavenly sea". (There was a huge controversy, just on the interpretation of this word)

One more thing. I don't criticize vedas. I criticize those, who deliberately twist facts and use the excuse of vedas for their purpose.
 
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