Behind the 'Bad Indian Coder'

[krishnandu.sarkar]

It started, as many deep philosophical Reddit debates do, with a one-line statement, “Got a contract to fix some outsourced Indian PHP code,” accompanied by an image macro of Toy Story characters Woody and Buzz Lightyear gazing off into the distance. “Security flaws,” the overlain, blocky white text reads. “Security flaws everywhere.”

Source : Behind the 'Bad Indian Coder' - Olga Khazan - The Atlantic

 

[CommanderShawnzer]

1.Inb4 "offended" Indian programmers

OR


2.Inb4 Indian Education system sucks

@ the butthurt Yanks/Fake-Yanks there

@Krishnandu: whats your view on this?you .NET programmer right?

 

[Hrishi]

Where in majority of organization...quality << quantity.

CUT-Copy-Paste sh1t everywhere.!!

 

[krishnandu.sarkar]

Yeah

Well, I kinda agree. US Education System is much more than Indian Education System. Yes we have IIT's here too. But there in US, from school level they teach Algorithms, and even other than CS, other subjects like Maths, Physics etc. are more procedural and systematic.

Here max. programmers try to achieve the goal, but really looses focus on quality. At institutes no one teaches proper way of coding.

And all of us knows this...the first proof is we are taught Turbo C still now in almost all engg. colleges.

Most programmers aren't aware about proper way of coding, good coding skills, do's and don't of coding, security and all. At my previous firm my HOD used to prefer normal query writing at page level instead of using QueryParameters and ORM. He used to say that thing helps everyone to debug easily.

This was just an example.

 

[sandeep410]

This is just a article from some butt hurt jealous foreigners who probably lost their jobs to indians.
If we were this bad why would they still outsource 65% of their IT needs to India.
US has a better education system but they dont have a better educated people. Thier kids are more bothered with playing halo and COD everyday rather than studying. On other had a indian kid goes to school from 8-1pm goes to tution from 2-6 comes home does his homework afterthat 8-10 he generally gets beaten by his mother for putting maths and scinece on his head.

And you dont even know how weak they are in maths. Indian mathematics syllabus is toughest in the world.
Also theres a reason why US people are called dumbest people in the world

Average indian coder is far better than average american. But pro american coder wold always be better than a pro indian coder.

 

[Hrishi]

This is just a article from some butt hurt jealous foreigners who probably lost their jobs to indians.
If we were this bad why would they still outsource 65% of their IT needs to India.
US has a better education system but they dont have a better educated people. Thier kids are more bothered with playing halo and COD everyday rather than studying. On other had a indian kid goes to school from 8-1pm goes to tution from 2-6 comes home does his homework afterthat 8-10 he generally gets beaten by his mother for putting maths and scinece on his head.

And you dont even know how weak they are in maths. Indian mathematics syllabus is toughest in the world.
Also theres a reason why US people are called dumbest people in the world

Average indian coder is far better than average american. But pro american coder wold always be better than a pro indian coder.

Have you come across people working in Call centers who have barely any idea about the technical stuff they work on ?? Companies are running on cost cutting these days , so they are focusing more on getting the work done , instead of hiring quality workers.

They outsource the jobs to India , because indians are good at getting the work done. People have deadlines to meet because of high workload , but the workforce doesn't increases because the companies doesn't want to pay much.
If the application meets the client's requirements and is okay , then why spend so much extra time , money and other resources in making it better if there is no extra payment for it. Better get the workforce indulge in other projects.

It's not that Indians are good or bad , it's just that the management in this country has spoiled the play. Getting the work done is more important than trying to achieve the best quality.

 

[Mr.Kickass]

Phew ! That comment thread was pretty hot with words

Thoda Masala from what I gathered

Our education system is the best in the world. IIT in India cannot even get accreditation. Average Indian IQ is 81 - borderline retard. Average American IQ is 98 - 17 points higher than Americans. Stop drinking the social engineering kool-aid.

Americans invented IT long before Indians ever set foot in America. If all these hindoos are so smart then why is the US a complete wreck? They've been here 15 years running everything.

Just think how much higher our average IQ would be if they took you out of the equation!

STFU you pedantic slumdog piece of ****...how's that for racist ?

Alright, Tim_Rothchild, since you asked for an assessment of how racist your statement was: "STFU" and "piece of ****" were conventional profanity, not racism, and "pedantic" was a non-racial insult. The only potentially racist term in your post was "slumdog," but "slumdog" is used to describe the urban poor and not a specific ethnicity.

I'll give you a 1.5 on a racism scale of 10. Your intent was there, but you didn't use any racist terms (unless we're being asked to stretch between "term for slumdwellers" and "that sickly-sweet British movie about the Indian kid.")

If you want some tips on racist statements, watch South Park. Cartman is a hilarious posterchild for racism.

On a more serious note though, I don't think we are that bad. Sure, the system definitely sucks but not we, as a demographic. Take this, for example, when I prepared for entrance exams I had to study every damn thing. The tests were objective so I actually had to think while answering. Fast forward to university, I had to slog all day, all semester, gather facts and figures just to unload it on my paper one day. Why play such games ? After all the effort that I went through just to understand what I read, only to roll back to those same old archaic ways of school where I'm forced to cram Now don't get me wrong. I'm not against subjective papers. They offer an insight otherwise difficult to gauge from an objective answer paper, but only if you teach that well

The point being that, you set such sky high limits for getting an engineering college but never work with what you've got. Such awesome students entering national universities only to leave as less than what they were worth at the time of admission. Now this kills talent. The entry point is always higher than exit point. The mark of a university is not in the students who join them but the students who leave

The regular tech grad just has to wade through this mess to get to where he wants to. Only that he has to make arrangements for himself. The school will never solve his problem. Just a few good profs here and there but that's it. The task of understanding the subject matter is almost always upon the student. Whatever happened to training ? So all this system doing no good. I understand perfection is theoretical, but isn't 90% implementation practical ?

Aryabhatta, Ramanujan, Sri Bharati Krsna Tirthaji Maharaj(Vedic Math)... all prove testimony to the fact that we are(neither were) no slouch when it comes to math and logic. The current system has turned epic win to epic failure.

Now, you can bash my views if you want to

 

[Hrishi]

Phew ! That comment thread was pretty hot with words

Thoda Masala from what I gathered





On a more serious note though, I don't think we are that bad. Sure, the system definitely sucks but not we, as a demographic. Take this, for example, when I prepared for entrance exams I had to study every damn thing. The tests were objective so I actually had to think while answering. Fast forward to university, I had to slog all day, all semester, gather facts and figures just to unload it on my paper one day. Why play such games ? After all the effort that I went through just to understand what I read, only to roll back to those same old archaic ways of school where I'm forced to cram Now don't get me wrong. I'm not against subjective papers. They offer an insight otherwise difficult to gauge from an objective answer paper, but only if you teach that well

The point being that, you set such sky high limits for getting an engineering college but never work with what you've got. Such awesome students entering national universities only to leave as less than what they were worth at the time of admission. Now this kills talent. The entry point is always higher than exit point. The mark of a university is not in the students who join them but the students who leave

The regular tech grad just has to wade through this mess to get to where he wants to. Only that he has to make arrangements for himself. The school will never solve his problem. Just a few good profs here and there but that's it. The task of understanding the subject matter is almost always upon the student. Whatever happened to training ? So all this system doing no good. I understand perfection is theoretical, but isn't 90% implementation practical ?

Aryabhatta, Ramanujan, Sri Bharati Krsna Tirthaji Maharaj(Vedic Math)... all prove testimony to the fact that we are(neither were) no slouch when it comes to math and logic. The current system has turned epic win to epic failure.

Now, you can bash my views if you want to

In short our education system is sorta talent killer.
Here education is driven by market , and not that the education drives the market and world.

 

[skeletor]

If we were this bad why would they still outsource 65% of their IT needs to India.

cost.

 

[prehistoricgamer]

Where in majority of organization...quality << quantity.

CUT-Copy-Paste sh1t everywhere.!!

If you are criticizing something, at least do it properly.

Whats the need to copy after u cut? Or why cut in the first place if you are overriding it with a copy?

This is another classic example of "copy-paste" scenario. Just because some half knowledge project manager somewhere in the sheds of an IT company comes up with the "cut-copy-paste" lingo and it caught up, everyone copies and pastes it in their vocabulary without even reviewing the meaning of it.

I ain't being a grammar / IT Nazi here. Just pointing out the very mistake the poster did which he was commending.

But well.. its me. No one's perfect.

 

[CommanderShawnzer]

All this is a result of copy-pasta-ing the Education system from the Raj and not upgrading it for 60+ years

 

[Hrishi]

If you are criticizing something, at least do it properly.

Whats the need to copy after u cut? Or why cut in the first place if you are overriding it with a copy?

This is another classic example of "copy-paste" scenario. Just because some half knowledge project manager somewhere in the sheds of an IT company comes up with the "cut-copy-paste" lingo and it caught up, everyone copies and pastes it in their vocabulary without even reviewing the meaning of it.

I ain't being a grammar / IT Nazi here. Just pointing out the very mistake the poster did which he was commending.

But well.. its me. No one's perfect.

Why didn't you include the word Sh1t too ?? Shouldn't it be code not Sh1t , since Sh1t isn't a relevant term to programming .
Even you too missed one , because you are also stuck in the slang-lingo.

 

[Extreme Gamer]

Yeah

Well, I kinda agree. US Education System is much more than Indian Education System. Yes we have IIT's here too. But there in US, from school level they teach Algorithms, and even other than CS, other subjects like Maths, Physics etc. are more procedural and systematic.

I call bullshit. The only thing the US K-12 education system has over our education system is real flexibility in choosing what courses you want to study. In terms of level of rigour or quality of precollege education, our system is bad in that we don't have enough good teachers everywhere. The rite of passage between school and college is also one of the worst things here.

ISC/CBSE are like the APs/A-Levels(UK) on steroids. Can't comment on indian each state board, sorry.

In computer science, I learned algorithms in class, in an ISC school. Math was procedural, and physics too if you would actually pay attention to the textbook and the class. Of course, that is not the case everywhere, and that is why it sucks. In our system, all we need is better teachers, more flexibility, and an improvement in the school-college transition.

In terms of colleges and universities, we need a complete overhaul of how the system works.

 

[R2K]

That guy probably lost his job to an Indian and maybe pissed of due to it.

 

[prehistoricgamer]

Why didn't you include the word Sh1t too ??

I didn't include it probably because I never heard my professors say "All you children do is cut copy paste ****". Neither did I hear it from my colleagues. So I don't think it falls within the purview of the accepted lingo by the IT community.

Shouldn't it be code not Sh1t , since Sh1t isn't a relevant term to programming .
Even you too missed one , because you are also stuck in the slang-lingo.

I didn't understand a word of this. Flew right over my head.

Nope!

EDIT:-

Shouldn't it be code not Sh1t , since Sh1t isn't a relevant term to programming

Nope. I didn't miss jack sh!t.

Code is not the only thing you can cut or copy & paste. I hope you do realise that.

 

[Mr.Kickass]

I call bullshit. The only thing the US K-12 education system has over our education system is real flexibility in choosing what courses you want to study. In terms of level of rigour or quality of precollege education, our system is bad in that we don't have enough good teachers everywhere. The rite of passage between school and college is also one of the worst things here.

ISC/CBSE are like the APs/A-Levels(UK) on steroids. Can't comment on indian each state board, sorry.

In computer science, I learned algorithms in class, in an ISC school. Math was procedural, and physics too if you would actually pay attention to the textbook and the class. Of course, that is not the case everywhere, and that is why it sucks. In our system, all we need is better teachers, more flexibility, and an improvement in the school-college transition.

In terms of colleges and universities, we need a complete overhaul of how the system works.

Here is an account of an American-Indian IIT Bombay student. If you aren't on Quora then I'll reproduce the whole content here. Now this guy seems to judge everything from an American POV, but some points are total facts. There is some degree of truth in those accusations.

Spoiler

I have been in both environments for a sizable amount of time, here are the stark differences I've noted:

Education
(this one is slightly rant-y, sorry about that)
The US education system focuses on intellectual improvement. The Indian one focuses on getting marks in an exam and pushing through the rat race. I've seen countless people in India who just know enough to pass the exam, but don't know what it all means. There's no point to this king of education. There really isn't. India could push a lot farther ahead if it simply started to encourage independent thinking.

And what's even more annoying is that there's the stereotype in India that Americans are dumb. Sure, test them by your own standards, and yes, they are. Most Americans would fail an exam in India. But, the opposite is true as well. Jokes relating to how they use calculators everywhere and all are prevalent as well. Guess what? Newsflash: In India, shopkeepers use calculators just as much.

The only difference is that Americans are given much freedom in their choices. Quite a few Americans choose not to further their education, and instead go for stuff like sports/etc. Not really a bad thing. In India, folks which don't want to advance their education are still forced through the system. Which brings me to my second point:

Independence
American children are taught to be independent from quite early on. Earning their own allowance via chores when they're younger and actual jobs while they're older is part of this. Getting kicked out from home once you join college is another -- your parents place is a place to visit, not a place to stay in. In the most part, the choices of the American youth are their own. Not their parents'. Sure, there's a bit of influence here and there, but not much. This sort of independence IMO, is a good thing, that should be appreciated and incorporated (at least in part) by India.

Civic sense
This is one of the biggest differences. In the States, people keep stuff clean even if they don't have to. Folks don't cut lines, nobody pushed. And none of that incessant honking even when in a traffic jam (or making a three lane road into 6). Most Americans subconsciously leave things the way they'd like them to be found. Not all the time, but the civic sense is a few orders of magnitude greater than that of the average metropolitan Indian. They avoid doing things which are illegal or would make the situation worse for someone else, even if it would smoothen the road for them.

Politics
No caste based politics. There is no direct constitutional support for party politics (India's constitution assumes that everyone has a party). Politics isn't played that dirty, and is fun to follow (usually). On the other hand, I have stopped reading most politics-based articles in the Indian papers.

Tolerance
Here, there is a lot of secular hatred, which has some very large and visible consequences. In the US, even though it has a very diverse population, hatred/racism is less prevalent (and wherever it exists, it is only rarely manifested)

Separation of business and personal lives
Once you leave for home in the US, you are not expected to reply to any emails or anything. You're officially done for the day. No calls, no email after this time. (Unless there's an emergency or a pre-planned conference call or something). In India, you're expected to reply ASAP to all emails and respond to all calls 24/7. You get paid for a 9-5 job but you end up working day in and day out.

Punctuality/lack of procrastination
In the US, "procrastination" means "starting to work on 4-week report a week before the due date". In India, it means "starting to work on a 4 week report the night before it is due". Sometimes not even that. (This is extremely common in schools)

Eschew plagiarism
Avoidance of plagiarism is drilled early and often into young Americans in school. Teachers don't mind typed reports, but they do mind if the reports have been copied from somewhere else. On the other hand, in India, no student thinks twice before copying from Wikipedia. And the teachers don't mind as long as the report is handwritten. (So, in the end, all projects are just a measure of your neatness and not of your knowledge). This isn't limited to schools, it carries over to college as well (and the careers of the students). The Wikipedia Education Program had a rather large problem with this (Wikipedia:India Education Program/Analysis/Independent Report from Tory Read / Wikipedia:India Education Program/Documentation), and this lead to a huge cleanup.

Respect
(See also: Manish Goregaokar's answer to Teachers: Why are teachers not respected in American culture?)

I find that in India there is a lot of blind respect given to elders. And a lot of importance is given to what I term as "false respect". For example, one cannot question what an elder says (in some societies); not even ask why. One just listens and obeys. I get that elders are more experienced and should be respected. But one should learn from their experience; not just blindly follow. I have known people who have some oppressive members in their family who are listened t due to their seniority -- and who misuse this power for their own gain.

A similar thing goes for teachers. Questioning the validity of a teacher's statement is considered disrespect. What I find ironic is that while Indians give a whole lot of importance to "respect" and rigidly follow certain "rules" of respect, very few people truly respect their teachers; rather they are looked upon as people not even worth paying attention to.

------------------------------------------------------


That being said, there are a lot of things that America can learn from India, as well.

(Source)

Now this is what most people in India do and I imagine, what people would accomplish if they can get access to greater resources

Spoiler

one word "JUGAAD" which means a temporary quick fix to anything.

for the most part of the 20th and 21st century india was left isolated from mordern world and global trade,our economy was weak and most people could not afford technology or even the most basic of western goods,so what did we do ? we din't crib,we din't whine,we simply invented the concept of "jugaad",if our furniture would rock,we din't call the carpenter to fix it,he would charge us money,we took a piece of paper folded it enough times for it to fill the gap and done.problem solved,money saved.that my friend is jugaad,and it is a tribute to Indian genius, and holistic thinking,and our ability to work around any problem,it is a tribute to our ability to not just survive but thrive even in the most adverse of circumstances and the fact that we can thrive is such circumstances means that we can strive towards a society where we wouldn't need jugaad one day,and we are moving towards that day,India might not be a leading inventor of things,but it certainly is the leading innovator.But till that day comes,we will stick with "jugaad" and that my friend you can learn from us.

here is some of the jugaads i could find on the internet

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a1618372f8313b66dce0c3e49e71a093[/IMGG]
your flush doesn't work,you call the plumber,we just think a little and tadaa *jugaad*.

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d5a94a2868ac9b2c61e0fc850e4da767[/IMGG]

oh your bicycle is old and doesn't have a handle,you don't need to buy a new one,here is a simple jugaad.

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-04a20c376e392f8792ba4ba3008dfa51[/IMGG]

one motor for everything

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5e6c9dd6fa2f197b95a21a06116fdfaa[/IMGG]

central cooling costing you too much ? here is a jugaad

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0c2224ffedf0c939ddd7c585bfdac712[/IMGG]

life jacket ? who needs that ****,we make our own life jackets.

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a6b252696bc827f2921b9ca76763a776[/IMGG]

shauk badi cheez hai,but it doesn't need to cost big

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6fea4e62ca7a480797e5ca12701f40f8[/IMGG]

[IMGG]ohh you bought a new wall unit ? how much did it cost ?[/IMGG]

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3a4d903e41ee2d36b9a3cabd5063615a[/IMGG]

the time on your rolex is the same as the time on our wall clock.wanna know how much did it cost us ?

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-acfb6ccca3c2611fdba9d462f7e6d837[/IMGG]

espresso any one ?

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9908c1a619c808885c1ea4559c856e61[/IMGG]

and you thought you could only use a press for ironing.

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-01187733e9f3299a97c17d5bc3d82c23[/IMGG]

"jugaadu" blender

[IMGG]*qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8363d8d4e1ddbb8b5c5beb823c539290[/IMGG]

we don't need to buy a cooler,we make our own coolers here.

there are a million more examples i could give you.but i ll stop here.

 

[CommanderShawnzer]

Here is an account of an American-Indian IIT Bombay student. If you aren't on Quora then I'll reproduce the whole content here. Now this guy seems to judge everything from an American POV, but some points are total facts. There is some degree of truth in those accusations.

That guy in the spoiler seems to be a wanna be "American" hungry for a greencard.but there is some truth in what he says.
But there is total bull too.
Like the respect to teachers thing
People don't "respect" teachers here,they "fear" them
for example

Pluto is a planet

Ma'am,According to the IAU,Pluto is not a planet

PLUTO IS A PLANET!

YOU THINK YOU KNOW MORE THAN ME!?

GET OUT OF MY CLASS!!

bbbut...

OUT!!!!

Haahahaha Maam se jyaada jaanta hai tu *high fives*? ahahahaha

*Proceeds to aggressively correct said student's papers and hold a grudge on him for her lifetime*

 

[Extreme Gamer]

Here is an account of an American-Indian IIT Bombay student. If you aren't on Quora then I'll reproduce the whole content here. Now this guy seems to judge everything from an American POV, but some points are total facts. There is some degree of truth in those accusations.

Now this is what most people in India do and I imagine, what people would accomplish if they can get access to greater resources

My argument is that we need better teachers in our education system and more flexibility. That will solve most of the problems he accuses the indian education system of. The fact that the system is about getting marks is because that's how the teachers drill the students into looking at the system. Flexibility encourages people to explore various fields. Good teachers encourage the right thought process.

Jugaad is hardly relevant to what I'm arguing about. Some of these pictures are obviously made because they want to exaggerate jugaad. Do you know why jugaad happens? Because a lot of times people are poor. Also, jugaad also happens outside asia. Even in north america (and no, not Indian immigrants) because the people are poor.

Basically, you're arguing on a tangent. The fact that people study to pass exams is not only true here, but it is also true in North America - it depends on what you want out of the system. And it is encouraged because it helps people fill in multiple roles in society, unlike the Indian pseudo-engineer trend.

Between current undergrad students who I interact with on a daily basis and a person on the internet (the person on quora you linked to), who should I believe?

And this was only about K-12 education. I have already stated that college education and the transition period needs a major overhaul.

 

[digit.sh]

What to expect from people who coded in Turboshit in their college days? And teachers also insist on using it. Even worse, when told why they should not use it, they simply do not understand why they should not. These people have not even heard of gcc.

 

[Vyom]

I blame the Indian Culture.