X1800XT vs. 7800 GTX

[AlphaOmega]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ATi already working on the R580? If that's the case, then we can expect to see a terrific card from ATi that builds up on the R520. As far as I know, the 360 is just using a modified R520 - even Nintendo will be using a custom R520 chip. I doubt if ATi will be allowed to release these custom chips for the PC market.

I don't think that ATi's XBOX 360 chip is a modified R520, at least from what I know about its architecture. It is codenamed Xenos, and has a unified shader architecture, meaning that the pixel and vertex shaders are not discrete hardware units. The shaders present can act as either pixel or vertex shaders. Depending on the demands of the game, any number of shaders can be set to process either. If a scene is renderer heavy more shaders can be allocated for pixel processing, or if a scene requires more geometry then more shaders can be set for vertex functionality. Talk about efficiency!
This architecture is so radically different from anything we have seen that I don't think that Xenos is merely an updated version of R520, and there are plenty of other differences.

ATi will not be allowed to release the exact same chip as the 360 to the PC. But no one can stop it from using an architecture that it has developed. Kinda like the XBOX (1) chip, which was better than the GF3, but nVIDIA released an even better one as the GF4Ti. And, if I am not wrong, XBOX GPU's shader programmability was announced before GF3.

Of course ATi is already at work on its next chip, since graphic hardware has a product cycle of approx. 6 months, ATi must have been working on the next chip for over a year. The work probably started as soon as the R520 left the chip design labs, as no one can possibly churn out a new chip from scratch in just 6 months! I would like to know if this new chip has the shader flexibility, cause vertex units have always gotten the short end till now.

 

[vmp_vivek]

Maybe this will help: *hardware.gamespot.com/Story-ST-23719-2610-9-9-x

 

[AlphaOmega]

BTW, does anyone know that the next version of of 3DMark is in the works. The guys at FutureMark have a policy to update the benchmark once the magical 10K mark is broken.

The new version will definately add support AGEIA PhysX PPU (oh God, not another component required for gaming ), and will most likely support multi-threading.

3DMark05 is no longer a valid benchmark, as both nVIDIA and ATi bring unique performance enhancements to the table. And there have been plenty of developments on other components, like multi-core CPUs.

Even then, regarding GameSpot's review, at 1024x768 X1800XT 512MB gets 9240 against 7800GTX 256MB's 7749. The difference being 1491 Marks. Upping the resolution to 1600x1200, X1800XT's score is 6549, while the 7800GTX gets 5812. The difference has more than halved, to 737.
I think that at low resolutions, like 1024, X1800XT scores by having much higher frequencies, but increasing the resolution lets the 7800GTX flex its fillrate muscle.

Guess we will really have to wait for the new 3DMark (an event I find really depressing), cause 05 seems to have hit its peak.

Don't go by 3DMark scores only, I have usually found them to be better at judging non-GPU components, like CPU, RAM etc. to find which component is holding back the system. Just my opinion.

 

[funkymonkey]

Well, the 7800 is the first, and currently only, card to support AA in alpha textures. Traditionally, card can only remove the jaggies from the edges of textures, but the new AlphaAA can remove them from inside textures, where they are transparent.
The blocky shadow problem was also effecting ATi cards, at least in UT 2004, as far as I know. That problem was removed from BF2 by using ForceWare 77 or higher. ATi ruled the roost, in IQ, during the time of the Radeon 9x00 series. Even the lowly 9200 was visibly better than comparable nVIDIA cards (in Doom3, which I have seen on 9200 and 5200/5600). But now, with the 6 and 7 series, ATi and nVIDIA are more or less on par. Also, pushing quality settings, AA and AF on the 7800 will be easier, due to its 8 extra pixel pipes.

Dude what you are talking about is Gama correct AA and transperencey AA.
I am not talking about that. Have you seen the screenies of Farcry with GF6 and GF7 series. The shadows casted by trees are all messed up.
The problem was BF2 was simple driver bug and its solved. That was nothign to do with what i am talking here.
The whole GF6 and GF7 series has problems where objects casting shadows use alpha texture to do so. This is clearly visible on the entire GF6 and GF7 range. This has nothing to do with Transperencey AA or Gama correct AA. It happens irrespective of if thats enabled or not.
And no none of the ATI products have these rendering errors.
Nvidia still using Angle dependent AF which ATI has ditched with X1800 series which is good. That will give it extra edge in IQ.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Well, the 7800 is the first, and currently only, card to support AA in alpha textures. Traditionally, card can only remove the jaggies from the edges of textures, but the new AlphaAA can remove them from inside textures, where they are transparent.
The blocky shadow problem was also effecting ATi cards, at least in UT 2004, as far as I know. That problem was removed from BF2 by using ForceWare 77 or higher. ATi ruled the roost, in IQ, during the time of the Radeon 9x00 series. Even the lowly 9200 was visibly better than comparable nVIDIA cards (in Doom3, which I have seen on 9200 and 5200/5600). But now, with the 6 and 7 series, ATi and nVIDIA are more or less on par. Also, pushing quality settings, AA and AF on the 7800 will be easier, due to its 8 extra pixel pipes.

Dude what you are talking about is Gama correct AA and transperencey AA.

I know that! Its just that your talk of alpha textures reminded me of 7800's ability to apply AA to alpha. What I have written before and after are two completely different things. Actually there is a problem with ATi cards when creating shadows in UT 2004, but it seems to be an isolated problem, which does not appear in other games. Here is a link to a screenshot of the weird shadows: ATI X700 Pro in DM-1on1-Desolation:
*i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/forumposter32/utshadows.jpg.

The blocky shadow problems, with nVIDIA cards will most likely be solved in a driver release. Also, in Far Cry you can practically clear it up with this command: "e_activeshadowmapsreceiving 1" (default is 2) (though I haven't tried it and don't think it is a perfect solution, will have to test it find out). Is the problem visible on any other games except Far Cry? I have heard of it being visible a couple to times in 3DMark05.

And this is not the only problem with cards/drivers. There was a also the texture shimmering problem with the 7800, which ATi found and reported. nVIDIA resolved it in 78 drivers. But then it was found that ATi had it too! I don't know if it has been resolved yet, but ATi had not done so till the Catalyst 5.8.
*www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1812/

Another thing. I noticed something strange when running Far Cry: The Project (the tech demo from CryTek) on my XFX 6600GT 128MB DDR3 AGP n/OC. During the entire demo, there was a weird kind of 'shimmer' (not to be confused with 'the shimmering problem') or bluriness visible on different parts of the screen, like an out-of-focus camera. First I though that it was a problem with my monitor, it was not. It was like there was a patch of bluriness on a random part of the screen. I don't know what is causing it. I ran it on ForceWare 78.01. Haven't checked it on 81.85, yet

 

[blade_runner]

Well, the 7800 is the first, and currently only, card to support AA in alpha textures. Traditionally, card can only remove the jaggies from the edges of textures, but the new AlphaAA can remove them from inside textures, where they are transparent.
The blocky shadow problem was also effecting ATi cards, at least in UT 2004, as far as I know. That problem was removed from BF2 by using ForceWare 77 or higher. ATi ruled the roost, in IQ, during the time of the Radeon 9x00 series. Even the lowly 9200 was visibly better than comparable nVIDIA cards (in Doom3, which I have seen on 9200 and 5200/5600). But now, with the 6 and 7 series, ATi and nVIDIA are more or less on par. Also, pushing quality settings, AA and AF on the 7800 will be easier, due to its 8 extra pixel pipes.

Dude what you are talking about is Gama correct AA and transperencey AA.

I know that! Its just that your talk of alpha textures reminded me of 7800's ability to apply AA to alpha. What I have written before and after are two completely different things. Actually there is a problem with ATi cards when creating shadows in UT 2004, but it seems to be an isolated problem, which does not appear in other games. Here is a link to a screenshot of the weird shadows: ATI X700 Pro in DM-1on1-Desolation:
*i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/forumposter32/utshadows.jpg.

The blocky shadow problems, with nVIDIA cards will most likely be solved in a driver release. Also, in Far Cry you can practically clear it up with this command: "e_activeshadowmapsreceiving 1" (default is 2) (though I haven't tried it and don't think it is a perfect solution, will have to test it find out). Is the problem visible on any other games except Far Cry? I have heard of it being visible a couple to times in 3DMark05.

And this is not the only problem with cards/drivers. There was a also the texture shimmering problem with the 7800, which ATi found and reported. nVIDIA resolved it in 78 drivers. But then it was found that ATi had it too! I don't know if it has been resolved yet, but ATi had not done so till the Catalyst 5.8.
*www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1812/

Another thing. I noticed something strange when running Far Cry: The Project (the tech demo from CryTek) on my XFX 6600GT 128MB DDR3 AGP n/OC. During the entire demo, there was a weird kind of 'shimmer' (not to be confused with 'the shimmering problem') or bluriness visible on different parts of the screen, like an out-of-focus camera. First I though that it was a problem with my monitor, it was not. It was like there was a patch of bluriness on a random part of the screen. I don't know what is causing it. I ran it on ForceWare 78.01. Haven't checked it on 81.85, yet

The console command e_activeshadowmapsreceiving 1 hasn't solved the blocky texture bug yet mate. The issue is still very much there.
Picture Link
Also If its was a driver issue like you pointed out then farcry has been out for over an year now and this issue has been noticed with Nv's 2 generations of cards mainly series 6 and 7. Let's consider that this is a driver issue, in that case its over an year, so why is it not fixed yet ?
This is the bug on 7 series card specifically a 7800gt
*img468.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farcry0005large0cz.jpg

As for shimmering; at the defauly quality settings for AF the games still shimmer and only the hi-quality AF fixes albeit with a performance hit. So that makes one wonder whther Nv are really "over-optimising" again.

For those who dunno, the Opengl crown has been taken away from Nvidia.
Chk out the following

*www.techenclave.com/forums/quake-4-high-end-graphics-shootout-36983.html

*www.techenclave.com/forums/ati-produce-tool-increase-doom3-scores-29508.html

posted the linkies i had off-hand.

EDIT: a new fix that increases FPS without AA as well
*www.guru3d.com/newsitem.php?id=3208

And for mc optimisations this is just the beginning, we should see similar gains in d3d games as well soon.

 

[blade_runner]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ATi already working on the R580? If that's the case, then we can expect to see a terrific card from ATi that builds up on the R520. As far as I know, the 360 is just using a modified R520 - even Nintendo will be using a custom R520 chip. I doubt if ATi will be allowed to release these custom chips for the PC market.

Of course ATi is already at work on its next chip, since graphic hardware has a product cycle of approx. 6 months, ATi must have been working on the next chip for over a year. The work probably started as soon as the R520 left the chip design labs, as no one can possibly churn out a new chip from scratch in just 6 months! I would like to know if this new chip has the shader flexibility, cause vertex units have always gotten the short end till now.

Hehe the r580 is already taped and ready to go ! The r580 team was working separately while another team was working on the r520. besides the r580 never faced the issues that were faced by the r520 But don't expect to see the chip in the market soon. We might see the GPU socket with the r580

 

[AlphaOmega]

The console command e_activeshadowmapsreceiving 1 hasn't solved the blocky texture bug yet mate. The issue is still very much there.
link
Also If its was a driver issue like you pointed out then farcry has been out for over an year now and this issue has been noticed with Nv's 2 generations of cards mainly series 6 and 7. Let's consider that this is a driver issue, in that case its over an year, so why is it not fixed yet ?
This is the bug on 7 series card specifically a 7800gt
*img468.imageshack.us/my.php?image=farcry0005large0cz.jpg

As for shimmering; at the defauly quality settings for AF the games still shimmer and only the hi-quality AF fixes albeit with a performance hit. So that makes one wonder whther Nv are really "over-optimising" again.

For those who dunno, the Opengl crown has been taken away from Nvidia.
Chk out the following

*www.techenclave.com/forums/quake-4-high-end-graphics-shootout-36983.html

*www.techenclave.com/forums/ati-produce-tool-increase-doom3-scores-29508.html

posted the linkies i had off-hand.

EDIT: a new fix that increases FPS without AA as well
*www.guru3d.com/newsitem.php?id=3208

And for mc optimisations this is just the beginning, we should see similar gains in d3d games as well soon.

I haven't tried out the Far Cry command, as I don't have enough space on my HDD, due to DataOne ahem, "downloads" , but many people report that it almost (not totally) clears up the problem. Again, I haven't checked it out, so I personally can't say.

As for the shimmering problem, I got my 6600GT when the 78 ForceWare was already out, so I have only tested it on ForceWare 78 and 81. There was absolutely no texture shimmerning while playing these games, with or without AA/AF (I normally test each game with and without these settings):
Doom 3: RoE - 78
GTA: San Andreas - 78
UT 2004 - 81
BF2 - 78
Halo - 81
NFS U2 - 78
Psi Ops - 78
Boiling Point - 81
Pariah - 78
Area 51 - 81

About the problem from my previous post, the Far Cry: The Project one. Has anyone else had the same problem?

nVIDIA’s next offering (G80?) will probably in the market by early 2006, and will one-up X1800. Since the X1800 has been released quite recently, I doubt that the R580’s release will coincide with nVIDIA. I really preferred it when both companies had near simultaneous releases, cause now I don’t know if nVIDIA, or ATi, is one step ahead or one step behind.

The X1800 competes with the 7800, and will end up competing with 8x00, until R580 comes out, so which one is ahead? One vendor will have to mess with their release dates to even this out.

BTW, what will nVIDIA’s next to next card be called? The 9800?

 

[blade_runner]

I haven't tried out the Far Cry command, as I don't have enough space on my HDD, due to DataOne ahem, "downloads" , but many people report that it almost (not totally) clears up the problem. Again, I haven't checked it out, so I personally can't say.

As for the shimmering problem, I got my 6600GT when the 78 ForceWare was already out, so I have only tested it on ForceWare 78 and 81. There was absolutely no texture shimmerning while playing these games, with or without AA/AF (I normally test each game with and without these settings):
Doom 3: RoE - 78
GTA: San Andreas - 78
UT 2004 - 81
BF2 - 78
Halo - 81
NFS U2 - 78
Psi Ops - 78
Boiling Point - 81
Pariah - 78
Area 51 - 81

Well the shimmering problem is related to anisotropic filtering so u notice it only with AF on at default settings. Although the prob has been claimed to be solved shimmering still exists . And anyways angle independent AF is better than Nv's angle dependent AF. . I've read horror stories of the Nv af shimmering in WOW and other games. There was a video as well though i don't have a link right now.

About the problem from my previous post, the Far Cry: The Project one. Has anyone else had the same problem?

nVIDIA’s next offering (G80?) will probably in the market by early 2006, and will one-up X1800. Since the X1800 has been released quite recently, I doubt that the R580’s release will coincide with nVIDIA. I really preferred it when both companies had near simultaneous releases, cause now I don’t know if nVIDIA, or ATi, is one step ahead or one step behind.

The X1800 competes with the 7800, and will end up competing with 8x00, until R580 comes out, so which one is ahead? One vendor will have to mess with their release dates to even this out.

BTW, what will nVIDIA’s next to next card be called? The 9800?

About the g80 well, i don't think its going to be launched early 2006, cause Nv still has to release the mid-budget (g72) and low-end(g7?) parts for the g70 generation. Right now Nv is one step ahead but thats only for like 2 months or so since the 7800 series released. But then again ATi will have all the parts in the market before Nv i.e. the whole hi-end to low-end range. So its more or less nullified.

Haha good joke abt the 9800 ! i can imagine Geforce 9800GTX

 

[funkymonkey]

well the shimmering and improper filtering is not the driver bug. Its hardware. Thats how GF7 and GF6 will perform anisotropic filtering. With no AF you wont notice any shimmering bcoz its visible only when AF is turned on. It will be always there less or more depending on the games and quality mode you use.
Nvidia still uses Angle dependent AF. And till it keeps using it, perfect AF wont be achieved.
And the shadow problem exsists in many games. Not only farcry but in many games.

About The project Tech demo. The demo is designed specifically for ATI hardware. There is out of focus bands on NV hardware. the only way to reduce it a bit is using software called 3danalyser and faje the X800XT device and vendor ID. That will render the water correctly but the focus problem still remains.

 

[icecoolz]

Am sure at the end of all this Venkat is all at see, and did not get an answer to his questions

Guys, funkey, Alpha, blade, nem and the rest. Just in a line tell them guy what he should get and let him be the judge.

 

[AlphaOmega]

well the shimmering and improper filtering is not the driver bug. Its hardware. Thats how GF7 and GF6 will perform anisotropic filtering. With no AF you wont notice any shimmering bcoz its visible only when AF is turned on. It will be always there less or more depending on the games and quality mode you use.
Nvidia still uses Angle dependent AF. And till it keeps using it, perfect AF wont be achieved.

I haven't checked with older drivers, but I have read that 78 and higher 'fix' the shimmer problem, which is also present in ATi cards, at least upto X800. Not sure, but I remember that the shimmer was caused by an aggressive negative LOD bias, so it should have been fixable with a driver update. And as per reports and my own experience, it has been fixed with ForceWare 78. UT 2004 (BF 1942 too) is one game that had the biggest problem with the shimmer problem, and I didn't see it, despite using different quality settings.

Guys, funkey, Alpha, blade, nem and the rest. Just in a line tell them guy what he should get and let him be the judge.

That's the problem. The choice is not clear. Neither product is overwhelming superior to the other. 7800 seems better when you ramp up resolution, but ATi is better at AA. ATi's 4x AA (for example) is nearly as good as 6x of nVIDIA's, leading to better IQ at comparable settings.
So, finally, it is upto Venkat to choose. Both cards are more than capable of handling games, for 2-3 years minimum (all things considered).

Choosing between bleeding edge technologies is always a gamble, but if I had to choose I would go with the 7800GTX, simply because its 8 extra pipelines should give it an edge in upcoming shader intensive games.

 

[blade_runner]

Am sure at the end of all this Venkat is all at see, and did not get an answer to his questions

Guys, funkey, Alpha, blade, nem and the rest. Just in a line tell them guy what he should get and let him be the judge.

Hahah ice this always happens when recommending products. Like alphaomega observed that he would suggest venkat to go for a 7800gtx. Like wise i would suggest going for the x1800xt since thats the absolute fastest in opengl and d3d games right now and add to that avivo, regular WHQL drivers, programmable AA and MC so you can expect regular optimisations and benefits for your favourite games, the angle independent AF and the ability to do HDR + AA which is a hardware shortcoming in the 7800 series. Add to that the very fact that the r520 has some extra silicon left to accelerate physics, AI and other computational tasks. ATI already demoed the power of the r520 in accelerating physics. All this makes the x1800xt a very very desirable package. Even the adaptive/transparency AA is now possible on ATI's old generation including the r300 series

 

[icecoolz]

gee thats one big line Blade Anyways I know of the R520's capabilities. Not as much as in details as you do (why am I not surprised ) But the R520 does seem like a better deal.

 

[raj14]

Although nVIDIA 7800GTX is destroyed by X1800XT, nVIDIA still has won this around, ATI R520 was delayed too much to makea impact on Mainstream market. while nVIDIA 7800GTX was globally launched the very same day it was unveiled without much of a hyped press confrence or anything similar. that said, both 7800GTX and 1800XT offer smashing performace, nVIDIA always had a Edge over ATI in Open GL, so games likes of Doom 3, The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay,, Splinter Cell: Chaos theory among other games which use Open GL Engine offer better performance, 1800AT on other hand nails games like: FarCry, Serious Sam II, F.E.A.R. which rely Heavily on Speedy Core and mamoth bus to boot with. the 512-Bit which 1800XT offers is the main reason for it being a 7800GTX Killer. 512-Bit bus coupled with 512MB of 625MHz Ultra Fast Memory gives incredible performance. in any case, buying any of them means you'd be able to play Games till 2007 with Decent Enough Eye Candy, none of these cards is Future Proof, put simply as soon as Direct X 10 is introduced, these cards won't weight anymore than a 9800Pro and 5950Ultra do today. for time being now and seeing the availbilty issues, any Ethusiast Gamer in India should pick a Gainward CoolFX 7800GTX, which comes factory overclocked at 503/1.3GHz or a PV-T70F-UND7 7800GTX From XFX which is also Factory overclocked to 490/1.3GHz.
@MAJOR-MINOR: The 7800GTX price you have mentioned is wrong, the PV-T70F-UNF7 7800GTX Model sells for Rs.42,500 not Rs.31,000

 

[Major-Minor]

@Raj - From where did you get that rate of 42k? from the website?. I actually called rptech and got the rates, I didn't pull out the rates from a hat. In any case I would never rely on the Indian distributor websites for the rates, according to the same rptech.com website the XFX 6600GT 256MB version is available for Rs. 17.5k and the 128MB version for Rs. 15.2k and we all know the 6600GT sells for no where as much.

XFX Cards at Rashi Peripherals

In any case this is what they have to say about the rates they have put up on the website -

( * : The Prices Mentioned are the Maximum Retail Price (Inclusive of all Taxes), kindly contact the nearest Rashi Branch Or Our Channel partners for more information on pricing/availability and delivery of the products.)

 

[raj14]

I didn't pulled off the rates either, nor did i took them from their Website, there Offcials told me that, when i quoted for price. in my city offcourse.

 

[blade_runner]

Although nVIDIA 7800GTX is destroyed by X1800XT, nVIDIA still has won this around, ATI R520 was delayed too much to makea impact on Mainstream market. while nVIDIA 7800GTX was globally launched the very same day it was unveiled without much of a hyped press confrence or anything similar. that said, both 7800GTX and 1800XT offer smashing performace, nVIDIA always had a Edge over ATI in Open GL, so games likes of Doom 3, The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay,, Splinter Cell: Chaos theory among other games which use Open GL Engine offer better performance, 1800AT on other hand nails games like: FarCry, Serious Sam II, F.E.A.R. which rely Heavily on Speedy Core and mamoth bus to boot with. the 512-Bit which 1800XT offers is the main reason for it being a 7800GTX Killer. 512-Bit bus coupled with 512MB of 625MHz Ultra Fast Memory gives incredible performance. in any case, buying any of them means you'd be able to play Games till 2007 with Decent Enough Eye Candy, none of these cards is Future Proof, put simply as soon as Direct X 10 is introduced, these cards won't weight anymore than a 9800Pro and 5950Ultra do today. for time being now and seeing the availbilty issues, any Ethusiast Gamer in India should pick a Gainward CoolFX 7800GTX, which comes factory overclocked at 503/1.3GHz or a PV-T70F-UND7 7800GTX From XFX which is also Factory overclocked to 490/1.3GHz.
@MAJOR-MINOR: The 7800GTX price you have mentioned is wrong, the PV-T70F-UNF7 7800GTX Model sells for Rs.42,500 not Rs.31,000

Heh won this round ? !! Just releasing hi-end cards which account for less than 1% of the total card sales is not considered winning the round !! omg !
Btw most OEM deals will be in ati hands since they will come out with the mainstream cards before that nvidia so the ball is in ATi's court right now.
Plus the memory ringbus is 512bit which should help it in bandwidth heavy situations, the memory interface bus is still 256bit .

Also major minor is quite right with the 7800gtx since a person i know got his 7800gtx for 31k + taxes unlike the 42k you quoted. The Asus 7800gtx TOP is around 40k but not worth the price imho.

 

[raj14]

From Where exactly? I am getting mine for Rs.85,000.

 

[Major-Minor]

@raj - 85k!!!, man someone is seriously ripping you off, which brand btw, XFX I presume.