Windows Vista beta 2: A user review

[drvarunmehta]

Aim to get atleast a Geforce 6 series card and 1 GB RAM.

 

[Ch@0s]

FX cards were slow in processing SM 2.0 for games, Vista UI is SM2.0 but not that complex, there is no speed difference in FX 5200, 5900XT, i will soon check with Geforce 6200 & 6600 when i return to lucknow, right now i m in delhi

Some of the shaders are as long as 40 instructions. FX cards will die with any sort of PS2.0 code and thats quite a bit. There is a DX8.1 fallback path but I'm not sure if its being used in the Beta2

I used it, & found moderate CPU usage, Vista was quite fast on my computer except when searchindexer.exe was on, so i disabled it the speed was much like XP. The frame rate of stuff on screen is not like that of games, so u cannot compare SM 2.0 speed of games to SM2.0 speed of the OS User interface

Thats the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard... Shader code is shader code irrespective of what application uses the code. FX cards will be slow whether they are running games or vista or computing FFTs in GPGPU.

even a FX 5200 non ultra with 128 MB RAM has enough horsepower to run Vista UI properly, unless i m missing some info..when i return, i will check it on other GPUs too

They will run but they'll be slow and won't support higher resolutions. Also as I stated, right now NV LDDM drivers are really buggy.

 

[Vyasram]

how will my system work
amd 939 3000+, 1 gb ram, 6600gt 128 mb, sd i upgrade anything. I wanna run vista at max settings. Also iwanna know whether 3dmax n photoshop will slow down in vista when they are available(because of all the eye candy)
Will gamin performance be better dan xp since it unloads all the unnecessary stuff, or whether the gui will hog everything

 

[gxsaurav]

U r getting it all wrong, have u ever read the UI guidelines for Windows Vista made by Microsoft, about how the Fonts should be drwan on scree by other softwares, & how WPA works

Vista UI is SM 2.0, but it nothing complex like games, games are far more complex, a simple GLass UI can be made simply with 20 or even less instruction, cos if u say, Vista UI sux in FX cards, then howcome Kororaa Linux, with about same glass like interface works fluidely, after all despite of being OpenGL is passing instructions only

The DirectX 8.1 fallback path is for games, not the UI of vista. Shader code is shader code, but as i said previously, Shader code of Vista UI is not as complex as that of a game, there is no direct comparision

according to Microsoft, U need a GFX card with 128 MB RAM to run upto 1600X1200 resolution, beyond that u need 256 MB card, all the graphics card has to do is the ability to calculate SM 2.0, & since the code isn't as complex as a game, even a FX 5200 will run it as smooth as a 7600GT

however, i would recomend new buyers to go for a Geforce 6 or 7 series gfx card, reason, they are more available & provide more features then FX cards (Purevideo, SM3.0, etc)

 

[Ch@0s]

U r getting it all wrong, have u ever read the UI guidelines for Windows Vista made by Microsoft, about how the Fonts should be drwan on scree by other softwares, & how WPA works

I don't need read those user docs cos I have source level access to certain portions of aero .

Vista UI is SM 2.0, but it nothing complex like games, games are far more complex, a simple GLass UI can be made simply with 20 or even less instruction, cos if u say, Vista UI sux in FX cards, then howcome Kororaa Linux, with about same glass like interface works fluidely, after all despite of being OpenGL is passing instructions only

A simple glass UI doesn't require shaders . All it needs is alpha blending support from the hardware which exists from TNT cards. Your whatever linux is probably using that. Mac OS X also uses the same for aqua. Vista uses shaders not just for transparency but for the complete presentation layer. This includes routines for drawing/shading/lighting/blur, glow and other imaging effects. These cost a lot more than just 20 instructions. Your FX card will die even on 20 instructions, let along higher. Also once u start processing the XAML, the shader counts start increasing dramatically.

The DirectX 8.1 fallback path is for games, not the UI of vista. Shader code is shader code, but as i said previously, Shader code of Vista UI is not as complex as that of a game, there is no direct comparision

LOL tell me why cant u compare both directly... both are 3D apps, both access hardware in the same manner. Both execute the same instruction set . All the effects don't need floating point precision... The ordinary blending effects can be done using DX 8.1 as well. Infact a lot more can be done and all you need to specify is the target to be PS1.4 instead of PS2.0 in ur shader compiler .

according to Microsoft, U need a GFX card with 128 MB RAM to run upto 1600X1200 resolution, beyond that u need 256 MB card, all the graphics card has to do is the ability to calculate SM 2.0, & since the code isn't as complex as a game, even a FX 5200 will run it as smooth as a 7600GT

however, i would recomend new buyers to go for a Geforce 6 or 7 series gfx card, reason, they are more available & provide more features then FX cards (Purevideo, SM3.0, etc)

All I'll say is try running the aero UI with all effects enabled at 1600x1200 and watch it crawl ..

 

[gxsaurav]

ok, i will do that once i return, i got access to a Radeon 9600 Pro too, will try on it

so, there are 3 cards 9600 Pro, Geforce 6200 nU & Geforce 6600GT, & my FX card on which i can try Vista aero UI all with 128 MB Card, lets see how vista UI runs on it. & i have done shader programming, quite frankly 20 instruction are enough for the UI, how can u say that it needs more then that, it's just 2d textures parallel to the screen, drawn in the GPU memory

Vista UI is not a 3D App, cos according to MS, a 3d App in vista cannot run in a "window mode", thats why, when u start a game, or the Medie centre in Vista the DWM closes, cos in full screen mode it's all 3d which doesn't require the compositing of the Vista UI

Vista UI is drawn by graphics card, but it's till 2D, not 3d, nothing like a game

although none of the monitor can go for 1600X1200, to which i have access

& how do u have source code level access to MS, R U an MS employee? show us some proof

in the mean time, why don't u try it, cos since u have access, u must be having a copy of vista, u got any UI benchmark we can use?

 

[Kannan]

Hey GX great preview yaar.

I think we have to wait another 1 year for the PCs & Laptops to ship with Vista as default.

I am eagery waiting for Vista CPP.

 

[Ch@0s]

ok, i will do that once i return, i got access to a Radeon 9600 Pro too, will try on it

so, there are 3 cards 9600 Pro, Geforce 6200 nU & Geforce 6600GT, & my FX card on which i can try Vista aero UI all with 128 MB Card, lets see how vista UI runs on it. & i have done shader programming, quite frankly 20 instruction are enough for the UI, how can u say that it needs more then that, it's just 2d textures parallel to the screen, drawn in the GPU memory

LOL... all the UI elements are 3D objects . If they aren't the effect at the bottom of the screen here is not possible. Every window is zbuffered 3D object which is texture mapped on the fly to make it look the way it is.

*www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/features/default.mspx

There is no way you can do glow and blurring together with a few alpha blends in less than 20 instructions. It'll be atleast 10 lines of HLSL code which means quite a few instructions.

Vista UI is not a 3D App, cos according to MS, a 3d App in vista cannot run in a "window mode", thats why, when u start a game, or the Medie centre in Vista the DWM closes, cos in full screen mode it's all 3d which doesn't require the compositing of the Vista UI

Vista UI is drawn by graphics card, but it's till 2D, not 3d, nothing like a game

although none of the monitor can go for 1600X1200, to which i have access

LOL all 3D apps in windows still work with the compositing engine enabled. Try any dx9 sdk demo or the rhdribl demo which runs in a window if you don't believe me.

& how do u have source code level access to MS, R U an MS employee? show us some proof

in the mean time, why don't u try it, cos since u have access, u must be having a copy of vista, u got any UI benchmark we can use?

It doesn't matter who I am... and about the latter... well I'll check out.

 

[gxsaurav]

if u go back in the past, u will find that MS said, they cannpot support OpenGL 2.0 in vista in it's native form, they said, the code will be translated in DirectX compatible code, which will result in opengl 1.4 like working. this poses a problem as many games & workstation apps work in openGL mode

then MS clerified that games need not worry, as they run in Full screen mode, at which DWM closes, when i played quake 4 on vista, DWM.exe closed down, & when i quit quake 4 it restarted. games do not run in window mode, those which do, are not working at full potential.

the directX 9 SDK demos are supposed to run in window mode, they are shader heavy, but not system heavy, they are simply example of the code

the UI elements of Vista are calculated in 3d, they are made in zbuffer, but they cannot be compared to using same functionality as games, even MacOS X UI runs with the gfx card but it cannot be compared to a game, it's nothing like a game, the window's are drawn as textures parallel to the monitor screen, in zbuffer, but the textures & code etc is very simple compared to a game

& why it doesn't matter who u r, cos u said u have system level access to aero. I don't know a lot about Vista DWM, but u do, plz celrify all here

take a look at this blog

*blogs.msdn.com/tims/archive/2006/04/18/578637.aspx

it clearly demonstartes how easy it is to code for the glass window, the WPA API out there makes it very easy for developers to write code for glass, it's nothing as compared to the complex SM 2.0 of games

besides this is not a SM2.0 thread, insted it's a Vista user review thread

 

[vignesh]

I don`t think Vista will be a hit...

 

[gxsaurav]

vista is not even finished yet, it's in beta, don't speculate anything right now, cos in the end we all know, it's Vista/XP which will have the largest market share, Mac & Linux etc has a long way to go, Windows just works, Mac doesn't (as it only runs on costly apple hardware), & Linux also doesn't (unavailable drivers)

 

[gxsaurav]

Well....i m back in lucknow, & will be checking vista on some other graphics cards

anyway, vista beta 2 is out, now anyone can try it

direct download

 

[kalpik]

Yeah, but the huge download is a pain in the @ss! Anyone got Ofiicial beta 2 here in delhi? Maybe i can get from someone here

 

[gary4gar]

it size 3.14gb.wonder what they have filled in 3Gb.
@kalpik
pls choose works with caution.anyways what u said is correct what u avoid the one word from it.u know which

 

[gxsaurav]

well....the full installation is just above 8 GB, it was 10, but i removed the hybernation file & few others files which i knew were safe to remove (help, other drivers)

the current Vista beta 2, has all the debug code in it, so that in case of a crash, & when u send report to MS, which u should cos it's beta, the debug code is also included, because of which the whole OS size is incresed, even XP was 2 GB in whistler (XP Beta 2) stage but in the end it installed within 1 GB

& then there is swap file, other users file, & not to forget that my Vista was Vista Ultimate edition, including everything such as Media centre, IIS etc, which i don't need, but did not had enough time to uninstall them

 

[gxsaurav]

I reinstalled Vista today, with a Geforce 6600 GT AGP, & rest of the configuration being same, & my conclusion, i can't find even 1% speed difference compared to my Geforce FX card. Right now, i m working on Vista

Geforce FX cards, have much more shader instruction capabiltiy, about 1024 if i remember correct, even more then ATI Radeon 9800 series, so running 40 shaders is not anything hard

For those who are going to try the Vista beta 2, there are a few tips i would like to say

Download the latest graphics card drivers for sure

[FONT=&quot]Disable hibernation in Windows Vista and remove hiberfil.sys?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Click Start, All Programs, Accessories, right click on “Command Prompt”, and then click “Run as Administrator”. If User Account Control (UAC) asks you for permission, permit the Command Prompt to run.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Next, type “powercfg -h off” (without the quotes), followed by pressing Enter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Close the Command Prompt window and restart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Disable DEP in Vista:

1. Click Start
2. Click All Programs
3. Click Accessories
4. Right Click on Command Prompt
5. Left click on Run as Administrator
6. Click the Allow button if it asks you for permission
7. Type or copy and paste this into the command prompt window: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bcdedit.exe /set {current} nx AlwaysOff[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
8. Hit enter and you should see the confirmation: Operation Completed Successfully
9. Reboot and DEP should be off.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To uninstall Windows vista, from a dual boot configuration[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If u have Windows vista installed on another partition, dual booting with Windows XP, then formatting the Vista partition, will remove Windows XP boot loader also, to prevent this, first boot in Windows XP, Insert the Vista beta DVD, then go to Start-> run & type[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]E:\boot\bootsect.exe /nt52 ALL /force[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]After this, your system will auto start & u will be automatically boot in Windows XP, now simply format the vista partition to remove it[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[bharat_r]

I'm currently downloading the Vista Beta 2.
Will it work my Geforece2 32MB?

 

[gxsaurav]

what is your rest of the system configuration. geforce2 MX 32 MB is a very old card, i think u will be able to run Vista in Classic mode (Windows 2000 UI) only, although the design will be new, because to run Aero Express, u need a graphics card with 64 MB RAM, which is the minimum requirment for Vista

that reminds me, gonna run vista on intel extreme graphics 2 & GMA 900

 

[bharat_r]

Rest of my config:
P4 2.0 Ghz
512 MB DDR 400 Hz Ram
80 GB HDD

 

[tarey_g]

because to run Aero Express, u need a graphics card with 64 MB RAM, which is the minimum requirment for Vista

that reminds me, gonna run vista on intel extreme graphics 2 & GMA 900

GMA 900 will not support aero glass , just for info.