Graphics Cards related queries here.

[asingh]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

^^ If Crysis was bottle necked by your CPU -- it does not classify in the category "dependent on CPU"

I hope/pray you understand how a GPU+CPU design works.

1. CPU Only : The CPU does (tries) the 3d rendering and outputs the frames.
2. CPU + GPU : The CPU sends the rendering to the GPU and the GPU outputs the frames.

No ways is Crysis a CPU dependent game. Please. Of course if the CPU has less processing powering, then yes you will face bottle necking. But is that not with any software with relation to the hardware executing it..?

 

[Krow]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

^^ If Crysis was bottle necked by your CPU -- it does not classify in the category "dependent on CPU"

I hope/pray you understand how a GPU+CPU design works.

1. CPU Only : The CPU does (tries) the 3d rendering and outputs the frames.
2. CPU + GPU : The CPU sends the rendering to the GPU and the GPU outputs the frames.

No ways is Crysis a CPU dependent game. Please. Of course if the CPU has less processing powering, then yes you will face bottle necking. But is that not with any software with relation to the hardware executing it..?

Check this out. *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1187500#post1187500

 

[asingh]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

^^ Reply added...!

 

[r4gs]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

For crysis, the CPU handles everything, including Physics and ai and rendering.
The graphics card handles only graphics, as do almost all games. For a lesser game engine this doesn't matter as the load is never so great.

In crysis the CPU is given a larger workload as it has to handle high quality ai, rendering and heavy physics calculations all by itself. If the load were to be more evenly distributed, it should improve the performance of the game.

If you look at dead space or cryostasis, the games look better and feel better and run smoother because of this optimization.

It is only in that reference that I said that crysis was CPU heavy.

Also, when you find 3 different graphics cards giving 63fps on an i7 processor, and the reviewer says, 'looks like we couldn't avoid a cpu bottleneck', then I assume the game is more CPU intensive than graphics card intensive. I don't remember where I read the review, it was either on hardwarecanucks or tomshardware. You can search there if you wish to pursue it.

 

[asingh]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

@r4gs:
So you telling me, currently I have a E7400 @ 4.0 Ghz and HD4890 Xfire, I want better performance in Crysis, what should I do:

1. Move to a Q9550 (stay with 2 x HD4890)
or
2. Move to a 5870. (stay with E7400 @ 4 Ghz)

Which will give me better FPS....?

Of course the CPU handles everything and everything for all games and for any thing done on a computer. But if you have a quick enough CPU, then the GPU starts to play a huge part in the performance of the game.

It is a standard convention, if the 3D and graphics are rendered on the GPU, then the game is GPU dependent. GTA IV is a case of CPU dependent game, since it does not recognize the GPU.

If I want to play Warhead on 1980 x 1080 @ Enthusiast, and I have an i7 ....

which one will be better a HD4850 or a GTX295. By the logic you are using, I can say that Crysis is RAM dependent..? Since all data has to be loaded to the RAM registers, and then it moves for processing to the CPU and hence the GPU.

What you say..?

Also you can read a few links at the below mentioned..

1. *www.tomshardware.com/charts/desktop-cpu-charts-q3-2008/Crysis-1680x1050,Marque_fbrandx14,818.html

2. *www.gamespot.com/features/6182806/p-6.html

3. *xtreview.com/addcomment-id-3665-view-crysis-processor-benchmark.html

In (1) you will see an overall variation, but look closely, within the same class of CPUs. There is not that my difference. So as cpus are being varied, the FPS does not change as much.

In (2) line again, within the same class there is hardly much difference.

In (3) Even the E8xx series, and Intel quads hardly show a difference.

Overall, yes, the CPU controls everything in a system, but if this parameter is kept constant or at a satisfactory level, then easily the GPU is the controlling factor for the performance of Crysis.

 

[tkin]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

@r4gs:
So you telling me, currently I have a E7400 @ 4.0 Ghz and HD4890 Xfire, I want better performance in Crysis, what should I do:

1. Move to a Q9550 (stay with 2 x HD4890)
or
2. Move to a 5870. (stay with E7400 @ 4 Ghz)

Which will give me better FPS....?

Of course the CPU handles everything and everything for all games and for any thing done on a computer. But if you have a quick enough CPU, then the GPU starts to play a huge part in the performance of the game.

It is a standard convention, if the 3D and graphics are rendered on the GPU, then the game is GPU dependent. GTA IV is a case of CPU dependent game, since it does not recognize the GPU.

If I want to play Warhead on 1980 x 1080 @ Enthusiast, and I have an i7 ....

which one will be better a HD4850 or a GTX295. By the logic you are using, I can say that Crysis is RAM dependent..? Since all data has to be loaded to the RAM registers, and then it moves for processing to the CPU and hence the GPU.

What you say..?

LOL, crysis RAM dependent, now where did I put my 24GB module.
::looks under the bed::

 

[asingh]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

^^ I guess I was too literal.

 

[r4gs]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

You really are in full flow tonight.
I'm sick of all this bickering but i want to straighten this out.
You misunderstood what i said. I said crysis was CPU heavy, not dependent. you can observe for yourself from your own links that the CPU plays a huge role in determining frame rate.

What makes you think that Crysis is quad-core optimized? read the links in your own post.

Crysis seems to be RAM independent beyond a certain point, again, read the links in your own post.

It seems absolutely foolish to run a 4850 on an i7 when you can get a GTX295. You of all people should know that. The reason you asked this question is I suppose, because of the misunderstanding referred to in the first para of this post.

I did point out that my GTX260 sonic was bottlenecked on my e7400 at 2.8GHz, I have no idea how it performs at 4GHz but it is safe to assume that the 5870 will be bottlenecked on a standard e7400 and it will be better if you move to a better processor.

I think your main point is that Crysis is not literally, a CPU dependent game. Point taken and noted. You are right. And as I pointed out, I said the game was heavy on the CPU.

Stop wasting your time with silly arguments and come straight to the point next time, namely,

"Of course the CPU handles everything and everything for all games and for any thing done on a computer. But if you have a quick enough CPU, then the GPU starts to play a huge part in the performance of the game.

It is a standard convention, if the 3D and graphics are rendered on the GPU, then the game is GPU dependent. GTA IV is a case of CPU dependent game, since it does not recognize the GPU."

Now isn't that simpler?

My point was that most processors seem to bottleneck the game. If some processing, such as Physics, was off-loaded to the GPU, it would make for a more optimized system.

I didn't know GTAIV was so cpu dependent. No wonder it wasn't running smoothly on my comp. I had to scale down a lot of settings.
This is not an argument, just a question,
when I ran GTA IV, it adjusted some settings based on my VRAM, does this mean that if I get a lower-end card with higher VRAM and a better processor, performance will improve? Why I'm asking this is mainly because my friend is upgrading his comp specifically for playing GTAIV. And if this is so, I'll tell him to get a better CPU. He already has a 9800GTX+ 1gb (i think) but coupled with an e6600.

 

[tkin]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

You really are in full flow tonight.
I'm sick of all this bickering but i want to straighten this out.
You misunderstood what i said. I said crysis was CPU heavy, not dependent. you can observe for yourself from your own links that the CPU plays a huge role in determining frame rate.

What makes you think that Crysis is quad-core optimized? read the links in your own post.

Crysis seems to be RAM independent beyond a certain point, again, read the links in your own post.

It seems absolutely foolish to run a 4850 on an i7 when you can get a GTX295. You of all people should know that. The reason you asked this question is I suppose, because of the misunderstanding referred to in the first para of this post.

I did point out that my GTX260 sonic was bottlenecked on my e7400 at 2.8GHz, I have no idea how it performs at 4GHz but it is safe to assume that the 5870 will be bottlenecked on a standard e7400 and it will be better if you move to a better processor.

I think your main point is that Crysis is not literally, a CPU dependent game. Point taken and noted. You are right. And as I pointed out, I said the game was heavy on the CPU.

Stop wasting your time with silly arguments and come straight to the point next time, namely,

"Of course the CPU handles everything and everything for all games and for any thing done on a computer. But if you have a quick enough CPU, then the GPU starts to play a huge part in the performance of the game.

It is a standard convention, if the 3D and graphics are rendered on the GPU, then the game is GPU dependent. GTA IV is a case of CPU dependent game, since it does not recognize the GPU."

Now isn't that simpler?

My point was that most processors seem to bottleneck the game. If some processing, such as Physics, was off-loaded to the GPU, it would make for a more optimized system.

I didn't know GTAIV was so cpu dependent. No wonder it wasn't running smoothly on my comp. I had to scale down a lot of settings.
This is not an argument, just a question,
when I ran GTA IV, it adjusted some settings based on my VRAM, does this mean that if I get a lower-end card with higher VRAM and a better processor, performance will improve? Why I'm asking this is mainly because my friend is upgrading his comp specifically for playing GTAIV. And if this is so, I'll tell him to get a better CPU. He already has a 9800GTX+ 1gb (i think) but coupled with an e6600.

GTA IV is too much CPU dependent, but that is a deficiency of the game engine. GPU is the most important factor in a game, now developers are trying to off load as much as possible on the GPU, thats the whole GPGPU(example-nvidia physX) concepts, while nVidia going from GPU->GPGPU,(also ati/amd GPU division), intel(larabee) and amd CPU division(fusion) is going from the other way, so invest in the GPU, and be sure an e7400 @ 3.6-3.8Ghz is not bottleneck for any single core card(HD5870, GTX285), but in crossfire/SLI systems you need a powerful CPU for the drivers to calculate the alternate frame rendering or split frame rendering that's used. There was a detailed article a long time back in some site(can't remember, maybe bjorn3d or hardocp) that explained this in details, if I get a chance I'll post the links later.

So unless you're going multi GPU an e7400 is enough(make sure to OC it to 3.4-3.6ghz).

So in future most games will rely heavily on the GPU, get a good GPU first, GTA 4 is and will remain probably the only game that relies on CPU rather than GPU(and hence looks ugly, runs uglier- no flame please), but most upcoming games will use GPU heavily.

BTW- Got exams coming, next I'll be online on 25th December, happy Christmas to all.

 

[spikygv]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

@r4gs:
So you telling me, currently I have a E7400 @ 4.0 Ghz and HD4890 Xfire, I want better performance in Crysis, what should I do:

1. Move to a Q9550 (stay with 2 x HD4890)
or
2. Move to a 5870. (stay with E7400 @ 4 Ghz)

of the two , the first one is more enticing to me. A 5870 will definitely face bottleneck from e7400 . Perhaps , a q9550 + hd5850 will be more balanced ?

In this chart , *www.tomshardware.com/reviews/build-balanced-platform,2469-8.html

I could say the e7400 lies between e6300 and e8400. Now at 1920x1200 , GTX295 shows a marked increase in fps as you move from e8400 to q9550. By that count , your e7400 is definitely proving to be a huge bottleneck for the 2 4890's.

Looking at the total of all the games tested at Toms , *www.tomshardware.com/reviews/build-balanced-platform,2469-16.html

there is definitely an increase in fps ( many a times drastic ) as you move from e6300 to e8400. So, we can conclude that u're cpu is certainly posing a bottleneck though not too severe.

 

[desiibond]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

^^dude. E7400 is defnitely a bottleneck to cards like HD5870 and GTX285.

My older Athlon 64 3200+ was severe bottleneck to HD4770 and I saw huge increase in framerate when I moved to X2 7750BE.

A Phenom II X4 should be a nice companion to those high end GPUs.

 

[r4gs]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

I'm currently using the stock cooler and OCing my e7400, but it has stability issues and I ran it only twice at 3.6ghz. It is however, very stable at 3.4GHz. I used 3dmark and a massively detailed maya frame, along with a few other CPU benchmarks running at full load for 48hrs to check stability.
Any suggestions for a decent cooler for the CPU to increase the performance? Temp touches 70 @ 3.4GHz full load. I don't have a high budget, maybe 2k at the very most.

 

[spikygv]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

^^dude. E7400 is defnitely a bottleneck to cards like HD5870 and GTX285.

My older Athlon 64 3200+ was severe bottleneck to HD4770 and I saw huge increase in framerate when I moved to X2 7750BE.

A Phenom II X4 should be a nice companion to those high end GPUs.

i agree completely. Since he already has intel mobo , i thought its better to buy q9550. Ofcourse, an i5 / phenom 955 would make far better choices in the long run. But i feel money is better invested in getting a better g-card and keeping the same mobo and ram for now.

 

[r4gs]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

@tkin: So you suggest a graphics card? My friend is a huge GTA fan and I think the e6600 is underpowered compared to my processor, which can't run GTAIV smoothly at high res and settings.
Don't you think a move to an e7400 at least will yield a higher performance in GTA? The 9800 shouldn't be bottlenecked by the e7400.
This is only GTA4 related, no other games are in consideration.(the guy doesn't even like COD4).

Exams till 25th December? you in engg? I have to go for same reasons. Back by Jan though.

 

[asingh]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

You really are in full flow tonight.
I'm sick of all this bickering but i want to straighten this out.
You misunderstood what i said. I said crysis was CPU heavy, not dependent. you can observe for yourself from your own links that the CPU plays a huge role in determining frame rate.

What makes you think that Crysis is quad-core optimized? read the links in your own post.

Crysis seems to be RAM independent beyond a certain point, again, read the links in your own post.

It seems absolutely foolish to run a 4850 on an i7 when you can get a GTX295. You of all people should know that. The reason you asked this question is I suppose, because of the misunderstanding referred to in the first para of this post.

I did point out that my GTX260 sonic was bottlenecked on my e7400 at 2.8GHz, I have no idea how it performs at 4GHz but it is safe to assume that the 5870 will be bottlenecked on a standard e7400 and it will be better if you move to a better processor.

I think your main point is that Crysis is not literally, a CPU dependent game. Point taken and noted. You are right. And as I pointed out, I said the game was heavy on the CPU.

Stop wasting your time with silly arguments and come straight to the point next time, namely,

"Of course the CPU handles everything and everything for all games and for any thing done on a computer. But if you have a quick enough CPU, then the GPU starts to play a huge part in the performance of the game.

It is a standard convention, if the 3D and graphics are rendered on the GPU, then the game is GPU dependent. GTA IV is a case of CPU dependent game, since it does not recognize the GPU."

Now isn't that simpler?

My point was that most processors seem to bottleneck the game. If some processing, such as Physics, was off-loaded to the GPU, it would make for a more optimized system.

I didn't know GTAIV was so cpu dependent. No wonder it wasn't running smoothly on my comp. I had to scale down a lot of settings.
This is not an argument, just a question,
when I ran GTA IV, it adjusted some settings based on my VRAM, does this mean that if I get a lower-end card with higher VRAM and a better processor, performance will improve? Why I'm asking this is mainly because my friend is upgrading his comp specifically for playing GTAIV. And if this is so, I'll tell him to get a better CPU. He already has a 9800GTX+ 1gb (i think) but coupled with an e6600.

Ok..you might have found my post(s) to be too wordy. Sorry for that. The reason I stated so much, was primarily so all can logically understand the point am trying to make. I do not like to come in here, and make a generic blanket statement. If that seemed like "bickering' to you, sorry again for that.

Regarding a GPU getting bottle necked. It is purely relative to the situation. What CPU x GPU x resolution you have. If the CPU is quick enough, and can feed the data quickly to the GPU, there should not be any bottle neck at all. I am running a Xfire system, and purposely did not invest in a Quad at that time (and the i7s were just launched so far to expensive), knowing I can easily bring my Wolfdale upto speed -- which I did. Prior to my OC my 2nd card was hardly stressed, but post that, both get a full load at run time. (Verified this using Riva Tuner and 3d Mark 06).

Again though, your point still is valid, that the CPU can hold back GPU, since it is not supplying enough data quick enough.

GTA IV:
It does not recognize the GPU at all. It has been highly critizised for this. Same reason I did not install it. It uses multi-cores, and 'I think', support multi threading at the same time. Before the i7/i5 launch the Intel Quads were the weapon of choice to get smooth game play for GTA IV.

If you friend is specifically upgrading for GTA IV, he should get the fastest CPU that will fit to his LGA 775 socket.

Or you can tell him to try:
OC his CPU to the max he can, and check the frame rates, with all at max settings. If the average FPS > = to max refresh rate of his monitor @ highest resolution, then he is good to go. If it is less then he can either:

1. Lower settings.
2. Lower resolution.
3. Get a higher processor, which ever his budget allocation will support.

So unless you're going multi GPU an e7400 is enough(make sure to OC it to 3.4-3.6ghz).

So in future most games will rely heavily on the GPU, get a good GPU first, GTA 4 is and will remain probably the only game that relies on CPU rather than GPU(and hence looks ugly, runs uglier- no flame please), but most upcoming games will use GPU heavily.

BTW- Got exams coming, next I'll be online on 25th December, happy Christmas to all.

Yea, that is what I have done. Merry X-Mas to you too...!

I'm currently using the stock cooler and OCing my e7400, but it has stability issues and I ran it only twice at 3.6ghz. It is however, very stable at 3.4GHz. I used 3dmark and a massively detailed maya frame, along with a few other CPU benchmarks running at full load for 48hrs to check stability.
Any suggestions for a decent cooler for the CPU to increase the performance? Temp touches 70 @ 3.4GHz full load. I don't have a high budget, maybe 2k at the very most.

Please do not try to OC at Intel Stock. It is 100% crap. Stupid piece of tin. A good OEM HSF is the Cooler Master Hyper 212 for approximate 2.2 - 2.4K. Do not go for the Cooler Master Hyper 212+, which is the cheaper successor to this, it has a slight anomaly on the contact surface. I used the Cooler Master Hyper 212 and easily am running at 4.0 Ghz. There is an OC thread in the chit-chat section, you can see my posts/verification support graphs.

@tkin: So you suggest a graphics card? My friend is a huge GTA fan and I think the e6600 is underpowered compared to my processor, which can't run GTAIV smoothly at high res and settings.
Don't you think a move to an e7400 at least will yield a higher performance in GTA? The 9800 shouldn't be bottlenecked by the e7400.
This is only GTA4 related, no other games are in consideration.(the guy doesn't even like COD4).

Exams till 25th December? you in engg? I have to go for same reasons. Back by Jan though.

Its not that easy to measure the bottle neck, unless you read tons and tons of reviews. Though personally I doubt going from E6xxx to E7xxx will make an earth shattering change. Better he move to Quad, or OC his E6xxx chip, and check the differential with stock. If he is crossing his max refresh rate, he is home good.

 

[r4gs]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

So what are the options for GTA4, a slower quad core or a faster dual core?
My friend has a budget of around 6-10k for CPU or g card. He just wants to play GTA, the only other games I've seen him play are NFS, FIFA and Red Alert 3.

 

[r4gs]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

Here are some pics of one of my friend's brand new Galaxy GTX 275 with bundle if anyone is interested.
*rapidshare.com/files/313716151/gtx275.zip.html
All are lo-res mobile cam pics, but are satisfactory.

 

[furious_gamer]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

So what are the options for GTA4, a slower quad core or a faster dual core?
My friend has a budget of around 6-10k for CPU or g card. He just wants to play GTA, the only other games I've seen him play are NFS, FIFA and Red Alert 3.

A Slower Quad Core v Faster-Dual Core? Eh???
Anyway for games , C2D is enough for now,but for future-proof,getting a Quad Core is a good idea.I suggest your friend to get a Q9400 @ around 9.5k(as his budget is max od 10k), which has 6MB L2 cache,is way better than a E7400 with 3MB cache. It easily handles the all the above mentioned games along with his GPU 9800GTX....

Here are some pics of one of my friend's brand new Galaxy GTX 275 with bundle if anyone is interested.
*rapidshare.com/files/313716151/gtx275.zip.html
All are lo-res mobile cam pics, but are satisfactory.

Not a good place to sell these stuffs...Try Bazaar section....

 

[r4gs]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

I'm not selling, neither is he. It was a gift and he'd rather die than part with it!
I just put up the pics if anyone wants to see what the card and packages are like.

So you would say that a quad core will yield better performance than a dual core in GTA 4?

 

[Krow]

Re: All Graphics Cards related queries here.

^Yes, most definitely so.