Free vs. Prop. Software. Is free financially viable?
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it_waaznt_me
Coming back to life ..
Count me in too ....
If you remove the revenue dimension from coding, you will see things clearly ... Make this analogy with posting in this forum ... You post here cauz you wanna discuss your views.. You find people you can help .... You dont ask money from people to read your posts...
If you create some software that will help someone do some useful thing you'll appreciate improving it ...
Welll.. I dont see coding as my primary occupation ... and thats why I dont see any harm in coding for free ...
If you remove the revenue dimension from coding, you will see things clearly ... Make this analogy with posting in this forum ... You post here cauz you wanna discuss your views.. You find people you can help .... You dont ask money from people to read your posts...
If you create some software that will help someone do some useful thing you'll appreciate improving it ...
Welll.. I dont see coding as my primary occupation ... and thats why I dont see any harm in coding for free ...
OP
tuxfan
Technomancer
You are right. But just because you don't get anything from here, you are more likely to move away to greener pastures as soon as you find them.
Before I came here, I was very actively involved in one more forum. There I had more than 2000 posts like you do here. But then after a particular point of time, I found it boring and switched over here where there is more India centric crowd. If I was paid for posting there, I wouldn't have left it. Same thing applied to softwares as well. Some monotony and lack of interest always lurks around the corner.
I agree. Nothing wrong in coding for free. Actually, its a great community service. But then service always comes secondary. Primary intention is to make enough for yourself and if time permits, contribute towards service. You can't survive on free coding. Thats the main point of discussion here.
Right. I don't mind coding for free in my free time because I have another source of income. I have done it in the time when I wasn't even aware of what is GNU and hadn't even heard of Linux. Windows was in version 3 and DOS was all aroundGNUrag said:
At that time I had made my C code libraries available for free. I was told by a few C and Clipper programers who used it later that it was very useful to them. It gave me lots of satisfaction, but no money If it would have given me some then, may be I would have made some more libraries or softwares. But I had to think about survival and got hold of some other source of income.tuxfan said:
make it proprietary. Build your own software using a non open source (C# say) and sell it. Ofcoruse the problem is the second you deicde to make it proprietary and sell it, it will be cracked in no time. There is no application in todays world which hasnt been cracked. Thats why I believe open source frameworks with proprietary solutions is the way to go.
Open source frameworks gives you the means by which you build the software. I can use open source frameworks to build my own proprietary solution for say the manufacturing industry like an ERP package. Nothing so big but you get the picture. You are using open source framework which give you well devised tools to build ur software. I am not violating any of the opensource laws as I am not making any modifications. I am using it to build software for my own personal use.
it_waaznt_me
Coming back to life ..
I still didnt got it ... @ icecoolz
... @ icecoolz
OP
tuxfan
Technomancer
I think I have now somewhat understood what icecoolz is saying. For example, if VB would have been freedomware (or open source), we can use it to make softwares. But we can keep our own software proprietory. We need not release it under GNU/GPL because we are not releasing a new modified version of VB.
@ icecoolz : If this is what you mean to say, then you are saying the same thing as I did quite a while ago. Since you use VB (assumption that VB is freedomware or freeware) for making programms, you are a user of VB. For you, as a user, it is fantastic. But when you go out to sell your software made in VB, you become a programmer. At that time, how will you survive if you sell it as freedomware :roll: We seem to have come back to square one.
One way out could be releasing your software under 2 types of licences like MySQL does. You can use either of them depending on where will you be using your end-product which needs MySQL. But keeping track of whether the right kind of licence is used or not is nearly impossible and once the source is opened, things can never be the same again
@ icecoolz : If this is what you mean to say, then you are saying the same thing as I did quite a while ago
. Since you use VB (assumption that VB is freedomware or freeware) for making programms, you are a user of VB. For you, as a user, it is fantastic. But when you go out to sell your software made in VB, you become a programmer. At that time, how will you survive if you sell it as freedomware :roll: We seem to have come back to square one. One way out could be releasing your software under 2 types of licences like MySQL does. You can use either of them depending on where will you be using your end-product which needs MySQL. But keeping track of whether the right kind of licence is used or not is nearly impossible and once the source is opened, things can never be the same again
it_waaznt_me
Coming back to life ..
Well.. there are many tools around .. Mono... DevCPP ...
(Right now in hurry ..will post afterwards)..
(Right now in hurry ..will post afterwards)..
batty,
those are tools which will allow you to develop ur own software agreed. But the resulting software need not be freeware. It can be something which you can sell.
tuxfan:
I agree that survival cannot be possible if freedomware is adopted by small time programmers. However I have been maintaining that open source (or freedomware) is mainly for two cataogires of people. People who love to code and so do it for non-profit and the large organizations who want to concentrate on the frameworks which will give better building blocks as mentioned before. The small time programmers who want to make software can not join the open source movement as it doesnt take them into consideration at the moment. Perhaps that might change in the future. However like my earlier statement, if Linus Torvald thought small.... see what I am getting at...
those are tools which will allow you to develop ur own software agreed. But the resulting software need not be freeware. It can be something which you can sell.
tuxfan:
I agree that survival cannot be possible if freedomware is adopted by small time programmers. However I have been maintaining that open source (or freedomware) is mainly for two cataogires of people. People who love to code and so do it for non-profit and the large organizations who want to concentrate on the frameworks which will give better building blocks as mentioned before. The small time programmers who want to make software can not join the open source movement as it doesnt take them into consideration at the moment. Perhaps that might change in the future. However like my earlier statement, if Linus Torvald thought small.... see what I am getting at...
OP
tuxfan
Technomancer
Agreed, icecoolz. If Linus and Stallman would have thought small, things would have been vastly different. But everyone is not as capable and efficient in programming as these guys. They are one in millions. But I feel, I am not. So need to think about me and others who are also not too good, but are capable of contributing small time.
Actually, software develpment is my hobby, my second career. So far I thought proprietory licences is the only way to go. Then came along Linux and GNUrag gave me a book by Stallman. I was impressed by the ideologies, but couldn't figure out how will that help me financially.
Anyway, after 5 pages of discussion the point remains that freedomware is not for financial gains, especially for small time programmers. I think I can safely draw this this conclusion. I request the admin to close this thread as there doesn't seem any more different ideas coming thru. Thank you all for good, meaningful contribution.
Actually, software develpment is my hobby, my second career. So far I thought proprietory licences is the only way to go. Then came along Linux and GNUrag gave me a book by Stallman. I was impressed by the ideologies, but couldn't figure out how will that help me financially.
Anyway, after 5 pages of discussion the point remains that freedomware is not for financial gains, especially for small time programmers. I think I can safely draw this this conclusion. I request the admin to close this thread as there doesn't seem any more different ideas coming thru. Thank you all for good, meaningful contribution.
GNUrag
FooBar Guy
Hey wait ... dont close this thread...
I think it is not right to start making proprietary programs using a Free Software as its base... Think of the 20 years of development that has gone behind GCC compiler...
And besides, legally also you cannot make proprietary software.... one of the aims of GPL was to stop free software and work derived from it to become proprietary... If your program is using GPL libraries of a particular compiler then you cannot make proprietary software out of it... this problem has been addressed to some extent with Lesser GPL licence... but the issue still remains.... why create Non-Free software that depends upon Free Software?
Some resources for you tuxfan... I've been digging around FSF-India mailing list for quite a while to find a reply to your query.... Dec-2003 thread of FSF -India mailing list has already adressed your concerns.... if you have some time and want some food for thought then see the following links.... in this particular month, RMS himself ...had also posted his comments here...
check out:
*mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2003-December/thread.html
especially the threads with title Need help on how to respond to insecure CEOs and No warranty is the best warranty for free software
I didnt get enough time to dig more but you can do it urself if you have time and interest for that...
[edit]
some more:
*www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/brian.html
read it in your free time...
I think it is not right to start making proprietary programs using a Free Software as its base... Think of the 20 years of development that has gone behind GCC compiler...
And besides, legally also you cannot make proprietary software.... one of the aims of GPL was to stop free software and work derived from it to become proprietary... If your program is using GPL libraries of a particular compiler then you cannot make proprietary software out of it... this problem has been addressed to some extent with Lesser GPL licence... but the issue still remains.... why create Non-Free software that depends upon Free Software?
Some resources for you tuxfan... I've been digging around FSF-India mailing list for quite a while to find a reply to your query.... Dec-2003 thread of FSF -India mailing list has already adressed your concerns.... if you have some time and want some food for thought then see the following links.... in this particular month, RMS himself ...had also posted his comments here...
check out:
*mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2003-December/thread.html
especially the threads with title Need help on how to respond to insecure CEOs and No warranty is the best warranty for free software
I didnt get enough time to dig more but you can do it urself if you have time and interest for that...
[edit]
some more:
*www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/brian.html
read it in your free time...
OP
tuxfan
Technomancer
The links that you gave opens up very long pages. I am too impatinet to read thru so much. Can you please put the crux of it here?
BTW, I have already joined the mailing list. But spam has started coming on that address. :roll: Actually, I created a POP3 account only for LUG mailing list, kept it somewhat abnormal and have not given it to anyone. Still spam has started on that!! There seems to be some leaks thru the mailing list
Anyway, I am about to start a project for which I would need a custom free software. I wouldn't mind it being released under GNU/GPL. I hope I receive help from LUG and also others. I will make the details known as and when I have made some preparations from my side. At present its all in my mind. Needs to have something more concrete before I tell others about it.
BTW, I have already joined the mailing list. But spam has started coming on that address. :roll: Actually, I created a POP3 account only for LUG mailing list, kept it somewhat abnormal and have not given it to anyone. Still spam has started on that!! There seems to be some leaks thru the mailing list
Anyway, I am about to start a project for which I would need a custom free software. I wouldn't mind it being released under GNU/GPL. I hope I receive help from LUG and also others. I will make the details known as and when I have made some preparations from my side. At present its all in my mind. Needs to have something more concrete before I tell others about it.
I have not yet gone thru the legalities of it all. But do intend to do it before I actually use GNU/GPL libraries. The day is somewhat far as of now.GNUrag said:
GNURag and TUXFAN,
I am not talking of the libraries released under GNU/GPL licenses. I am talking of the frameworks which exist such as struts and other frameworks. These anyone can use to develop software for their own purposes without needing to expose the source. Otherwise most of the bigger companies would be revealing their source by now but dont since Struts and other frameworks do not requitre you to. I dont see how licensing can come into this.
tuxfan if you need any help with your application let me know will gladly help!!
I am not talking of the libraries released under GNU/GPL licenses. I am talking of the frameworks which exist such as struts and other frameworks. These anyone can use to develop software for their own purposes without needing to expose the source. Otherwise most of the bigger companies would be revealing their source by now but dont since Struts and other frameworks do not requitre you to. I dont see how licensing can come into this.
tuxfan if you need any help with your application let me know will gladly help!!
OP
tuxfan
Technomancer
Thank you for your offer. I will surely need all the help that is available and will surely contact you. As of now, I will reveal just one point. It is going to be for kids. But I will ask for contribution after I have applied my mind to it. Can't expect others to work on it till I myself do. Right?icecoolz said:
BTW, please give more details about the frameworks that you mentioned. I am not aware about it/them at all.
Will be glad to help out and since its for kids hey am all for it. Well one of the frameworks I mentioned is struts. Struts is typically used in a 3-tier architecture where it enables you to plugin several components, and also enables you to build a single interface for multiple devices such a Browser, PALM and WAP and so on. I'll get you more information and get back to you. The framework I mentioned is for java by the way.
GNUrag
FooBar Guy
I am just seggregating some links for you...
Need help on how to respond to insecure CEOs
RMS : *mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2003-December/001301.html
Ramanraj : *mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2003-December/001294.html
A quote :
What i mean to say is an application developed for any particular project.... it can be an CRM solution in struts framework also.... but if you are into retail business of ur CRM solution then you should also provide source code also so that your customer does not get locked into you....
As regarding the GPL libraries, If you are using the GNU's C runtime libraries or Qt or GTK libraries then your application is dependent on those libraries and it wont work without them.... According to licence, your application has to be licenced under GPL if this is the case.... GPL says, its done for preventing Free Software from becoming proprietary...
Need help on how to respond to insecure CEOs
RMS : *mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2003-December/001301.html
Ramanraj : *mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2003-December/001294.html
A quote :
By the way, there's no way any email addresss can leak from FSF-Friends mailing list.... coz there's nothing like a "leak" from a mailing list.... subscribers email address are kept completely confidential.... and since you haven't posted any message to that list, there's no chance anyone knows about your email address.... see, even i dont know ur email address (mailing list) ....RMS said:
See, Struts is a Web Application framework.... And the web application frameworks have a limited usefulness and they can't suit every kind of project.... Desktop applications form a majority, and struts framework doesn't fit anywhere.... It is limited to a browser/palm-pda .... We dont have something like a "framework" for general purpose applications like media players, browsers and the like...icecoolz said:
What i mean to say is an application developed for any particular project.... it can be an CRM solution in struts framework also.... but if you are into retail business of ur CRM solution then you should also provide source code also so that your customer does not get locked into you....
As regarding the GPL libraries, If you are using the GNU's C runtime libraries or Qt or GTK libraries then your application is dependent on those libraries and it wont work without them.... According to licence, your application has to be licenced under GPL if this is the case.... GPL says, its done for preventing Free Software from becoming proprietary...
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