Free vs. Prop. Software. Is free financially viable?

[DKant]

Freeware..yeah right we love 'em. So can we build an industry out of that? No! If freeware must survive, it has to be on a compromise with proprietary (aka high-priced) software.

And if u don't like that (which is what I think u must be feeling), forget "free", think "reasonably priced" and work for a system that encourages the same.

Freeware will never be able to fulfil Stallman's dream of "software for everybody". It's impossible. We just CAN'T build an industry that gives out its products for free. Think rational, think "reasonably priced." We are talking about systemic change here. U can't just dream of all things good when ur thinking at such a practical level.

And it's only with "reasonably priced software" that everybody can start talking/thinking about "looking under the hood of ur s/w" legally. Absolutely NO compromise solution b/w free and proprietary software has got room for this..just like now.

Till freeware and proprietary-ware are both alive, freedomware cannot survive for long. Systemic change is imperative.

 

[tuxfan]

Freeware will never be able to fulfil Stallman's dream of "software for everybody"

Stallman never talks about freeware, he talks about freedomware (as I like to call it). Well, you will understand the difference between the two as soon as you read the book that I will send you

Question is not of price, question is of free permission to copy, modify and even sell without any benefit accruing to the original writer. I think a MLM (Multi Level Marketing) kind of system could work, but not the total freedom that Stallman is talking about.

And no matter what conclusion we all draw, A lot of Free Software for varied purposes will be made.... how does one explain this

That is because there are people who feel passionately for the cause. But then they must also be doing some other work and not surviving on freedomware alone. I hope I can make it to this meeting on 10th Sunday. You know how difficult it is for me to come on Sundays and this one will be all the more difficult due to some specific circumstances

 

[girish_b]

Bill gates says he takes money ti buy bread for his programmers

 

[casanova]

Wow, what a sense. I was thinking about free softwares and commercial softwares during day time and at night i saw this topic.

Firstly, what is more powerful the hardware that we see and touch or the software that makes it run.

If people can purchase the hardware which is nothing without the software why can't they purchase the working software. Even after purchasing a car, they purchase accessories for it (just generalising the question), so if they can purchase the accessories without which the car can run why cant they purchase softwares without which the computer cannot run.
It takes sleepless nights and restless days for a programmer to make that software. It happened to me, i have woked up in between my sleeps and then coed that program an went to sleep again.
If a cleaner is paid for that small work, y shouldnt the software developers. The price is to b paid to the developers and what u (all who have posted) say that donations to be given, they can give it for improvements.
Source code to be provided is damn shit. since if some1 gets the source code, he can modify it and sell it back at low rates (forget the money he gave to purchase that soure code, but he doesn't have to develop the logic). Wat if the second person modifies the software a bit and sells it at lower rates that too with improvements.
Who the hell will purchase the base product.
You r stuck on freewares, i think we should even ban sharewares, since the cracks crack this shareware and it no longer is to be purchased.
And instead of letting the user know its qualities after using it with limitations, developers can create videos or screenshots for the software.
Internet is not in each and every household and hence the internet method to register is worse since sometimes it forces an individual to look for cracks. if implemented it would be better even to register on phone as with windows.

Huge softwares are available with software distibutors at every nook and corner.
Small utilities should also be available at outlets since it reduces the risk of mishandling and misusing.

Linus Torvalds said with respect to Bill Gates :: "He couldn't convince me about business and i couldn;t covince him about technolgy." Technology is more implemented by microsoft and those who talk about tech should also know its value and the cost one puts behind developing it.

 

[DKant]

GRRRR!!! I had just typed half a page long post and then for some heavenly reason IE decides it must go to sleep. I just can't delay the browser switch any longer. Now I have to retype everything.

Neway getting back to the topic.

Bill gates says he takes money ti buy bread for his programmers

40bn $ for BREAD? Please!

Question is not of price, question is of free permission to copy, modify and even sell..

The last three imply the first's fallacy.

OK consider this example. Suppose tuxfan works day and night for several weeks and months and releases a nice new 3D Designing tool that beats anything that's come out on the market, but is a little low on, say user-friendliness. Since he's spent a good amount on the hardware (for testing all the functionality in it), he puts a modest price on the s/w so he can atleast recover his costs. Now imagine that some greedy low-level programmer (like DKant) buys a copy of this s/w. He's impressed with the functionality available..but thinks it's a li'l low on userfriendliness (as it actually is). So he adds some bells and whistles (read hotkeys and new command buttons) and now sells off his version (which didn't require a lot of investment) for a much lower price. Since this 'new' product is more user-friendly and is cheaper.. naturally it will be a success in the market.

without any benefit accruing to the original writer

Tuxfan believes in this and has accordingly priced his product. However DKant's actions, far from even resulting in any kind of benefit for Tuxfan, are actually causing him financial harm!!

Is that acceptable?

I think a MLM (Multi Level Marketing) kind of system could work, but not the total freedom that Stallman is talking about.

Freedomware. Freeware. Think the two are very different? Yes if ur looking at the definition and the idealistic environment in which their operation is visualized. But think about the real world. I have the full right to copy whatever software I buy. After that I could legally redistribute the same code for free! I repeat, no financial benefit could be OK if ur really into it, but what about financial harm?

Now in an MLM (thanx for giving it a name. I was searching desperately for one ), while I would still retain my freedom to copy, and modify the code to suit my needs, I would also not be causing any harm to the original author.

An authorization program won't inhibit the programmer's 'creativity' in any way. What it would curb, is financial harm to the original author. That's all.

Guess I need the book desperately ! And I WILL pay you for that.

 

[DKant]

Things change too fast!! Casanova posted when I was still retyping evil my post. Since the previous post was already pretty long, I thought this was worth a new post:

if they can purchase the accessories without which the car can run why cant they purchase softwares without which the computer cannot run.

If a cleaner is paid for that small work, y shouldnt the software developers.

Excellent points. Some of the justifications for an MLM. (Don't agree on the 'small work' part thought. Even a cleaner's job is very demanding. Neway no space for a discussion on that here)

Source code to be provided is damn since if some1 gets the source code, he can modify it and sell it back at low rates etc.

This roadblock is overcome in MLM.

Internet is not in each and every household and hence the internet method to register is worse since sometimes it forces an individual to look for cracks.

Good anti-MLM point. But I think if u can go around looking for cracks, u shld be able to take the effort to go to a nearby Net cafe and register ur copy (a tiny registration program can be easily carried around on a floppy). The registration code can be easily copied to the system on which the s/w was installed.

"He couldn't convince me about business and i couldn't covince him about technology."

That's exactly what this thread is all about! It summarizes the fundamental contradiction at work here! The respective ideologies of Linus Torvalds and Bill Gates are mutually incompatible, meaning "Good Technology" and "Freedom" can't translate into "Good Business" with either of the ideologies, if implemented in their respective 'pure' forms. What we need therefore is an evolved model, that walks the 'middle' path...of "reasonably priced software" (i.e. freedomware and not freeware) which could easily translate to an MLM based system (thanx for the quote, Casanova )

I know I've repeated a lot of points here from my previous posts, but I had to point out the resonance!

 

[casanova]

Ok so one should carry the tiny registration program in a floppy, wat if starts to check if the program is running on the current machine (i m in a netcafe and the program is in my room). I dont know exactly bout it but recently when i was downloading windows media player 10 it refused since the netcafe was running windows 98 and the download was supposed to be for winXP. if downloads suffer which is nothing but just copying the executable from the origin to some other place, how come the registration will succeed. Software developers are on a high in many countries especially in India, so y not host their software products in cities (atleast metropolitians) if not in noos and corner. Pirated versions are available though in every corners and they do sell. Piracy leads to piracy. let me clarify with an example I purchased a pirated version of a copyrighted software say Oracle for Rs100 (Actual price is 1 lakh rounding off). i installed it and passed it out to DKant and then to TuxFan and the list continued. Even then the pirated CD's are sold in hundreds of quantities. If piracy is banned i cant pass the cd to DKant and... so the units sold should rise since Dkant needs it so he has to purchase it. Orcale is a huge software priced heavily but not all use it. Say WinAmp pro (since winamp is freeware) is used by every pc user (if not pro atleast the basic) so the units will be sold in lakhs then y to host it on sites and waste the CPU time in uploading and downloading the software.{ This topic i have started but as i m going on i m realising new and new points but getting nervous with this piracy i hope u understand wat i want to convince you. } so if the s/w is available, one can purchase it. Small utilities cost hardly $50 so its not that tough. Also small s/w can be bundled with h/w (OEMs). Nero got publicity from OEMs itself. Hardware is hardly pirated so instead of giving freewares or sharewares they can be given as OEMs.
Small utilities can be bundled with other small utilities and can be sold as groups. In this way the end user can get a group of utilities and even piracy can be stopped. Downloading these utilities accounts to half the price (not sure but if one rates Time is money then i think it goes more). Audio casettes and ACDS are available and even in case of music piracy and free music offered on radios they go well And I bet the softwares should also. By the way doing anything the copyrighted way is ease of mind.
Next point i have posted as a new post since these points have nothing in common

 

[casanova]

Linux built by Torvalds, i dont know much bout him but RedHat sells Linux a little modified for Rs1200/-. And here they r not charging for the little effort they put in modifying th OS but they charge for The Cd, the pckaging, the manual (i bet no1 reads it) and to pay a lil share to the merchandiser. So this is a laugh on freewares and opensource.
So u wish to have rights for the thing u purchased. Ok if you purchase an airline ticket do you uproot the seat and take it along with u. No.
Do u resell the ticket after u reach ur destination.
No
So y do you wish this with softwares.
Programmers always ask for improvements. So u can give him the changes u wish and he will modify it and give it to u at a fee, afterall he has worked after it.

 

[tuxfan]

The quote of Linus summarises the whole point in minimuj words!! Freedomware doesn't make good business sense!!

Suppose tuxfan works day and night for several weeks and months and releases a nice new 3D Designing tool that beats anything that's come out on the market

Wow! I wish I could do that :roll:

But the points that you raised there are just the right ones. You seem to have expressed my thoughts in your words Allowing redistribution with or without modification just destroys the programmer in the long run. He may even lose motivation to work harder

Guess I need the book desperately

Contact your dad, must have already reached him

Ok so one should carry the tiny registration program in a floppy, wat if starts to check if the program is running on the current machine

Thats just an example. Don't take it too seriously mate. There could be some more practical way of doing things. But that is not the point here. Right?

if you purchase an airline ticket do you uproot the seat and take it along with u. No.
Do u resell the ticket after u reach ur destination.
No

Quite funny comparisons. But not entirely applicable though.

BTW, it feels so better to have more people coming forward to put their arguements on this topic. I requested the new moderator (batty as he is known) to invite some more knowlegerable people from Digit to give their views on the topic. But no one has come :roll:

 

[DKant]

Guess I need the book desperately

Contact your dad, must have already reached him

He told me about ur call..he hasn't got the book yet...or maybe he'll call up later.

Getting back to Casanova's concerns:

Ok so one should carry the tiny registration program in a floppy, wat if starts to check if the program is running on the current machine (i m in a netcafe and the program is in my room).

That was just an example..yes. But it was in fact based on what I had to do a coupla months back when my Net connection went down and I had to register my trial copy of Acid Xpress. All I had to do was to carry the registry entries file (or maybe it was a profile file...don't remember exactly) to the cafe, update it (hardly took a few seconds), come back and copy it to the right location (guided on all along by the readme). Didn't feel like too much of an effort to me.

I dont know exactly bout it but recently when i was downloading windows media player 10 it refused since the netcafe was running windows 98 and the download was supposed to be for winXP.

Who's talking about WINDOWS????

Neway..WMP is one of MS's homegrown (read 'monopoly') programs that tie up pretty closely with ur OS. So if that d'load ur talking about was a part of the setup process (like u run the setup and the Wizard starts to download the required files) then the process was aborted when the Installation part began..or maybe MS just wanted to save u the trouble of finding out for urself later Either that or I don't know . But I believe that's an exception. For example, VB2005 works only on Windows 2000 and above. But I was able to download it, and it was only after running the setup (and getting it aborted) that I came to know it was of no use to me. (since I use 98 ). But we're talking about registration..which is a much simpler process (like the Acid Xpress example)

Ok so one should carry the tiny registration program in a floppy, wat if starts to check if the program is running on the current machine

Thats just an example. Don't take it too seriously mate. There could be some more practical way of doing things. But that is not the point here. Right?

Exactly. But I had to point out that the process wouldn't really be as complicated as it is being made out to be...even with this cumbersome (relatively) a system.

if you purchase an airline ticket do you uproot the seat and take it along with u. No.
Do u resell the ticket after u reach ur destination.
No

Yeah right we don't do anything of that sort ...but then u haven't bought the airline seat. All u've bought is the ticket, which gives u the right to sit in the aeroplane at XY location. What u do with the ticket is entirely up to you, however, just as in Freedomware! U can scribble on it. Make beautiful shapes. Even tear it to pieces (if ur ready to face the consequences that is. Just like formatting all ur drive/deleting the software ). But u can't resell it. For 1 simple reason...noone's gonna buy a used ticket . If it hasn't been used however, what ur doing is plain illegal, and can be detected easily if there's a proper identification mechanism in place. That's THE primary concern regarding Freedomware...identifying and distinguishing one copy from the other..a process that is simplified by means of using registration codes...as in MLM!!

Remember what we're talking about is FREEDOMWARE! And not FREEWARE. They are not very distinct in the current business/software models, and that's exactly why we're talking about a new system that could accomodate both the user's freedom and the programmer's financial health.

BTW thanx again for the example Casanova. It was simplistic ,yes,(no offense )...but it helps in 'concretising' the concepts (of Freedomware and all)

OK now that the conceptual part has been dealt with, can we get back to the core topic? Any more inputs on that? (MLM etc.)

 

[casanova]

thats what i wanted to convince.
in the example of the airlines we are buying a ticket and not the seat
while in the case of softwares,we r purchasing a software (registration) and not the brains behind it

 

[GNUrag]

Such long posts... can't read em all... our central issue is that of a programmer who is willing to make Free Software ... and how he can fund himself for the rest of his life without depending upon donations alone...

We all agree that a programmer today, is more than willing to write code and indulge in varied projects just for the sake of doing it... This Free Software movement is being carried on by voluntary software programmers who are willing to give a small portion of their time...

as for piracy issues raised by casanova, i must say, piracy will be rampant till the software houses will continue their stubborn atitudes of making proprietary technologies... of they stress more on Open Standards, then any other vendor can also make a comparable software adhering to that Open Standard, thereby increasing Competition, and minimising Piracy...

And i still dont understand about this MLM issue...

as for that airlines thing... Dkant has explained it already , Its just a service that they are selling and not the plane itself... and a ticket is a proof that you paid for that service...

 

[tuxfan]

i must say, piracy will be rampant till the software houses will continue their stubborn atitudes of making proprietary technologies

I feel propritory software will also remain a big part of software industry till a good enough revenue model emerge for freedomware!!

As for MLM logic, the thing is that if I make a distro of GNU/Linux and sell it, I don't pay anything to Linus or Stallman. But in MLM I do that, I have to pay them.

Taking it a little further. I am using PCQ Linux 2004, which is based on Fedora Core 1 which has applications from GNU and kernel from Linus. Now when I pay PCQ, they will have to share revenue with Red Hat Inc. RH Inc in turn will have to share it with Stallman and Linus. The pyramid that way goes on.

 

[GNUrag]

I feel propritory software will also remain a big part of software industry till a good enough revenue model emerge for freedomware!!

As of now, we dont have a revenue model for Free Software developers.... and still we are seeing so much activity.... and i doubt some revenue model can come in place....

Proprietary software model might be good, but the fact is that Free Software and Open Standards model has certain inherent advantages....

In my opinion... A project like internal auditing/financing project might be better off a closed one , and there's no point in opening up sources..... but if a company decides to make a project like.... say a Web Server... then its the FreedomWare version that most people(read companies) will opt in for.... since it has trust of a millions of people....

As for MLM logic, the thing is that if I make a distro of
....
....
But in MLM I do that, I have to pay them.

allright, i now understand MLM a lil bit, but i wonder how this can be implemented ...

 

[tuxfan]

As of now, we dont have a revenue model for Free Software developers.... and still we are seeing so much activity.... and i doubt some revenue model can come in place....

That is what I have been saying since the first post. There is no revenue model. A software company can't rely on donations, sale of t-shirts, CDs, etc. to survive. In that respect, this theory seems somewhat flawed, unfortunately Open Standards model may have inherent advantages, but mainly to users not to programmers

but if a company decides to make a project like.... say a Web Server... then its the FreedomWare version that most people(read companies) will opt in for.... since it has trust of a millions of people....

I repeat myself once again. You are here talking from a user's perspective. I have already said, freedomware is great for users. But in spite of getting millions of users who trust its software, what does the company who makes it get? Hardly anything in monetary terms!!

As regards MLM like structure, this is just an alternative which looks better than the present scenario. Implementation is next step and needs the minds and efforts of specialists. I (and most other here) don't have enough firepower on this topic. But for this to happen, people must first realise the absence of a good revenue model in freedomware. Only then will there be some progress in that direction.

 

[icecoolz]

Ok se frameworks are needed for any further development to happen. Now like I had pointed out earlier frameworks didnt come into existence out of thin air. It was put into existence by a bunch of people who were programmers in their life and decided to pen down the common things they noticed in their career. They didnt collectively decide to make the framework proprietary. They very well could have. And we all can imagine as to what the consequences of that could have been. Even today the programmers use these existing frameworks to build their necessary softwares. So do we ask them to pay royalty to the people who built todays frameworks ? No I think thats how it works.

Programmers need to stop thinking from a smaller perspective and look at the larger picture. Support is a serious money spinner nowadays. Consider this:

Oracle Application Server is 5000 dollars compared to the BEA equivalent is something close to 15000 dollars. So where does Oracle hope to make the money from ? support. I know cos I worked with them for more than a year and a half. The whole thing runs on support.

Open source has become a really viable option for small corporations as well as large ones. IDE's such as IBM's eclipse and Net Beans have been implemted in many corporations. Its cut costs by 30% !! I predict more and more movement to the open source market.

 

[GNUrag]

Programmers need to stop thinking from a smaller perspective and look at the larger picture. Support is a serious money spinner nowadays. Consider this:

Exactly, support and donations are the only money earning routes possible.... Here we are concerned about a small time individual programmer.... Big companies can be operated by selling Free Software and Support but individual peogrammer cannot survivr like this...

 

[tuxfan]

@ icecoolz : GNUrag has just summarised the crux of this thread in 3 simple lines. Selling support is not a panachea for survival in case of small time programmers. If freedomware is the only way to go, then they should either shut shop or join a big company. If these are the only two options, then it surely curbs enterprenureship instincts Well, I hope we as a country don't want that to happen.

If besides support, donations is the only other thing that brings revenue, I don't think I will be interested :roll: I was (and I am) very impressed by the ideology, but for me (and many others) it seems financially unviable

 

[icecoolz]

tuxfan & GNURag :

Your points are valid. I for one do not think on the smaller scale though. Linus Torvald certainly didn't else the whole concept of open-source would never come into the picture. I think we need to rethink when we say enterpreuership (pardon my spelling!!) If we think on a smaller scale then go in for the several routes of which doesnt have to be open source. There is plenty of other alternatives available.

The open source is model is built with main focus on the enthusiasts who wish to program and want to be scrutinized for better ideas and for the colgromates.

One thing, as of today there doesnt exist anywhere "reasonable model' of pricing anywhere. The more expensive you make you software the more the hackers that contribute to its exposure. And the smaller softwares usually dont get the recognition that they want and hence cease to exist. If smaller grade programmers want to build their own softwares and get paid for it then open source is def not for them....

 

[tuxfan]

I for one do not think on the smaller scale though. Linus Torvald certainly didn't else the whole concept of open-source would never come into the picture.

Yes I agree and therefore we are thankful to him, Stallman and thousands of others for giving us so much.

If we think on a smaller scale then go in for the several routes of which doesnt have to be open source. There is plenty of other alternatives available.

What alternatives are you talking about? I am interested in knowing them. Please elaborate.