Vista is still the most secure OS to date.
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rocket357
Security freak
Hrmmm...to further clarify, I should state that with Windows, you're restricted to what's given to you by M$. Sure, they can open up an API for VS 2005 "plug-in" development and all, but you're still using *their* software.rocket357 said:
With open source I'm not restricted to one company's concept of "what's right for me".
Also, I'm not attempting to say that using OpenBSD/FreeBSD/Gentoo/whatever is *easier* than using Vista. I'm saying that I have more control over what my machine is doing. Don't want an eye candy desktop that's a complete waste of resources? Fine...I'll install XFCE or Fluxbox. Oh wait, but I best install an eye candy desktop so I can compare to Vista, right? Hrmmm...Beryl? Compiz? KDE/Gnome with tweaks? Enlightenment? What if I don't want to run a desktop? Oh, that's right...no one is forcing me to use one!
And as for security, I can *modify* my systems to whatever level of security *I* deem necessary. Oh, you can't recompile with buffer overflow protection? Sorry to hear that...guess you're running Vista Ultimate, or you're not benefiting from buffer overflow protection. I get that protection from Linux OR BSD for no money...it just costs a bit of time to get it set up right.
The Gentoo-FreeBSD alliance is not a *mix* of the OS's...it's an enhancement to get the best of both worlds from each OS.praka123 said:
Basically (and in my opinion), the "best of both worlds" scenario occurs when using BSD (OpenBSD or FreeBSD, doesn't matter). I can run Linux binaries without modification on those BSD systems, and that means I can run Crossover Office, WineX, Cedega, etc...so I can run Windows apps on there, too. There's quite a bit of effort going into this area recently (as far as I can tell) because not all Unix systems use the same binary format.
Edit - I stand corrected! The Gentoo-FreeBSD project is aiming at building a FreeBSD system with Gentoo's userland capabilities. Damn, that sounds awesome...thanks for pointing that out, Praka123. So this hybrid system will benefit from Gentoo's powerful tools and FreeBSD's kernel (better memory management, better security...wow).
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gxsaurav
You gave been GXified
rocket357 said:
Hmm....hard to find out. Windows Classic is the most minimalistic form of Window Manager on Windows & it still provides much more features then that 100 MB installation of gentoo. Oh & it does eats more RAM due to all those features like instant search, Windows Preview. Tell me rocket & show some screenshot, R U running Flubox or XFCE?
This makes me wonder. You were ready to compile the gentoo packages from sourcem, but you did not tried to find out why your Windows installation is slow or whether you have the latest drivers installed or not. Oh well.....there are 10000000 of users in this forum using hardware config similar to the one u mentioned & I have not seen many of them saying that there installation of Vista or XP is slow.
I am also running a computer far older then yours. Pentium 4 3.06 GHz with 1.5 GB RAM & GeForce FX 5900XT. Guess what, Vista runs faster then XP SP2 here. I wonder how did this happened, oh well...could be just that I know how to use Windows & customise it for my needs. I don't know how to do this in Linux, but I know it can be customised. You don't know how to do this in Windows & you don't even know how much it can be customised.
Personal comments from fanboys started, like always.
Hmm....I can do nothing to prevent you from assuming false things on your own. Never I have mentioned that Vista is prefect. Oh man....i really can't do anything if you read with closed eyes
This line here proved that you are a biased fanboy. Lolz....seriously, have u been living in a dreamworld, or have u never seen the level of 3rd party support Windows enjoys. You can make plugins for VS 2005 in your beloved Eclipse IDE too.Did Microsoft stopped u from using a 3rd party application you wanted to use in Windows?
Welcome to Google search for finding "How to do <enter question here> in Windows"
Don't want Eye-Candy, fine, Windows Classic which still provides more features then XFCE
Eye Candy = Aero, already there
Tweaks, ya sure. TweakVI, registry & what not.
I think you never tried to learn how to use Windows.
rocket357 said:
Nah, I will just run Windows Update to get the available patch. Done.
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rocket357
Security freak
What 100 MB installation of Gentoo are you referring to? Oh, the one you DON'T have? Nice...by the way, I HAVE posted screenshot links...read your opponent's posts before replying, please...it enhances the entire sanity of the thread.gx_saurav said:
Slow compared to Gentoo...gx_saurav said:
Ahh yes, Start->Run->msconfig.exe->ForceConservativeSwapUsage=1gx_saurav said:
(Forgive me if I haven't listed that verbatim...it's been a bit since I've messed with it).
Why do I have to specify to Windows to not use swap until it's necessary? Isn't that a bit of a waste?
I've posted numerous facts concerning the shortcomings of BSD/Linux. You have yet to say a negative word about Vista.gx_saurav said:
Sigh...I said "if I wanted to run..."...not "I run Eclipse". Personally, I prefer development using the lightest system possible. Perhaps that's why I'm not a big fan of VS2005. I've done my fair share of development with VS2005, and it appears to me to be a slower version of stuff I could accomplish with a text editor (read that: NOT notepad or wordpad...a REAL text editor).gx_saurav said:
Hrmmm...and to what end? Pay for this, pay for that? I have a 100% free system (free as in no money involved) that suits me better than Windows. That's all that needs to be said.gx_saurav said:
Oh, you mean there's such a thing as a *search engine*? Perhaps the same one I've already posted about? Wow! Thanks for the tip!gx_saurav said:
Have you really pushed XFCE? What about Fluxbox? Just curious.gx_saurav said:
You call THAT eye candy? It's a joke compared to Beryl!gx_saurav said:
You have a valid point here...but I think you've never tried to learn Linux, and that would be as valid a point as any. (Please spare me your Ubuntu/Fedora/Mepis/PCLinuxOS horror stories!)gx_saurav said:
shantanu
Technomancer
rocket357 said:
well you know a lot about BSD and other open stuff.. well first try and learn about Windows Vista Memory managment and then you should write about overflow.. try using Vista with 512 ram, then also it will show you all used up and with 4gb too.. well you need to understand the concept behind that.. its just for increasing performance, if you run any program then VISTA will automatically give the RAM to that program.. it wont say memory shortage...
its nothing personal but you sound like a OVERSMART guy, who keeps on talking RUBISH... just hold it !! Windows is very secore for me.. both XP and Vista..
i am not saying that OSS are not secure but Windows is also as secure as MAC or LINUX...
rocket357
Security freak
The overflow comment was obviously a joke. Sorry if it came across wrong...I wasn't serious about that! As for Vista memory management, please explain to me how it's a performance GAIN if I use a hard disk that is *slower* than my main memory before the main memory is used up? No, you've missed the point. Virtual memory hails back to the day of memory being expensive and in small capacity. Virtual memory isn't for performance, it's to increase the available memory the system "sees" so you can run more stuff than you have RAM for. This comes at a performance *hit*, not *gain*.shantanu said:
No offense taken...we're all mature adults here, right? I dont' take offense to being called "Oversmart" (if such a thing exists?), but rubbish? I've posted numerous times concerning the shortcomings of MANY operating systems...I realize that even my beloved OpenBSD suffers vulnerabilities and bugs. Developers are human beings, and as such mistakes will be made. How have my posts exhibited any other viewpoint? (Not taking offense here, but I am questioning how my posts are rubbish).shantanu said:
Edit - DAMN, Shantanu! That's a nice machine you have listed in your signature!
rocket357 said:
Just for reference, this was posted by me quite a few pages ago...
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shantanu
Technomancer
rocket357 said:
First of all i am talking about the MEMORY ( not PF) so memory is the RAM i am talking about.. so when all your RAM is Dynamically allocated by the system, it works as BOOSTED RAM (means when a Program wants memory , Vista provides the boosted DYNAMIC allocation to it, so that the program runs Smoothly.. the same applies in Gaming concept..
now as i wrote you must be having a great knowledge about OPENBSD and you might be pointing out bugs etc. it hardly makes a point for me.. the only thing i am concerned about is VISTA.. coz its not that BAD as you claim it to be, by pointing out bugs that even dont exist.. by saying it to be not secure while it is as secure or even more secure than ANY OS right now in the show...
well rubbish i meant about the posts related to offending other FORUM members supporting VISTA.. coz baseless comments on VISTA can't down the show for it...
try using Wiki links or Microsoft KB for more information on VISTA MEMORY MANAGEMENT...
and BTW PF is used when system needs more RAM then available to system, dont you think that Linux also has a SWAP partition , in windows we just have a file we dont need to carry a whole partition... (well i dont have enough knowledge about LINUX or OSS)(i might be worng in SWAP thing in LINUX) but this is what i think....
rocket357
Security freak
What bug did I point out that didn't exist?shantanu said:
And the highlighted section of the above quote makes this trolling possible =)
Vista has had 10-12 high severity bugs fixed in the past 6 months. If my math is correct, that's roughly 1-2 every month (rounding off in Vista's favor, of course). OpenBSD has had 2 high severity bugs in 10 YEARS.
How is Vista more secure, again? I must've missed that post?
And guys, seriously...I don't care what you think of Vista, or OpenBSD, or Linux, or Mac, or whatever...I'm just bored and trying to get a rise out of you (which I've done with relatively great effect). The exception, I'd have to say, is Shantanu, who's been calm during this nonsense...heh.
Sigh...I have homework to do, so I'll leave it all at this. Enjoy Vista! And seriously, I hope I haven't offended anyone. I just like seeing Windows fanatics get all bent out of shape over anything that contradicts Microsoft...heh. I'd do the same on BSD forums, but those crazy bastards would probably hunt me down hahaha.
Edit - And gx, serious man, VS2005 isn't half bad...I'm installing it now on a virtualized WinXP install as I'm typing this hahaha
gxsaurav
You gave been GXified
rocket357 said:
Yup, I don't have that 100 MB RAM consuming Gentoo installation, which also provides no features.
Now, I am sure you don't know anything about how vista works
. Vista caches things as u run. If you need RAM it gives it back to the application demanding RAM. Tell us a more efficient way plz.You want free stuff + Time to make it work. We want paid stuff + no time to get it to work. We just like to start using it from day 1. Hey, did u ever tried looking at the plethora of free apps available for WIndows out there.
Nope, sorry. I don't have enough time to learn to use an OS. I just open my PC, work on whatever I need & when done, I close it.
The more user friendly an OS is which allows to tinker with the OS, the less secure it is.
rocket357
Security freak
Hrmmmm...well, I was going to let the trolling go, but you seem to be willing and able to argue some more? I accept the challenge...heh.gx_saurav said:Yup, I don't have that 100 MB RAM consuming Gentoo installation, which also provides no features.
Now, I am sure you don't know anything about how vista works
You want free stuff + Time to make it work. We want paid stuff + no time to get it to work. We just like to start using it from day 1. Hey, did u ever tried looking at the plethora of free apps available for WIndows out there.
Nope, sorry. I don't have enough time to learn to use an OS. I just open my PC, work on whatever I need & when done, I close it.
The more user friendly an OS is which allows to tinker with the OS, the less secure it is.
I think the above highlights speak for themselves, but I'll elaborate because well, I'm intrigued by these comments...You gripe at me for not using/learning Windows, and yet you state in black and white you don't have time to learn another OS? Face it...this argument is a simple matter of what OS matches our lifestyles/trends/etc...also, the other highlight kinda points out the same thought. You're a Windows fanatic because Windows fits your needs. I'm an open source fanatic because BSD/Linux fit my needs. What more needs to be said?
As for Vista caching...where does the cache reside? Hard drive? Sounds like PageFile/Virtual Memory! RAM? Sounds like normal RAM operation, only with more crap to keep track of...
And please spare me the security through obscurity defense of Windows. Just because I'm allowed to view/edit/configure the source code does not mean my OS of choice is less secure. I can get the source code for OpenBSD...does that mean OpenBSD should've had more than 2 high severity bugs in the past decade? Oh, I guess OpenBSD goes against the grain, then.
Edit - man gx, I hate your posts...I always seem to find more to respond to each time I read them. Ok, there's a plethora (nice choice of words, by the way) of free apps for Windows. How many of those apps would you guess originated in the OSS world? I can think of quite a few (though admittedly I don't know much about non-OSS Windows apps because I don't really track that stuff).
gxsaurav
You gave been GXified
rocket357 said:
Nah, if u don't fight, even I won't.
yes, eggjactly. Use whatever you want, just don't rant about your product being the best cos it is not without its flaws.
You call Vista less secure compared to OpenBSD. I call OpenBSD less user friendly compared to Vista.
I will make it simple for you. When u open notepad (example) it starts & loads all the helper dlls as notepad needs. Now when you close it, it closes, but the DLL & Exe are still in RAM, & they stay there till some other app asks for RAM.
Yup, just cos I m not allowed to see the source code of my OS, doesn't mean it is not secure or can't be trusted.
Do one thing, go to Linux vendors like Red hat & tell them to do same auditing for Linux kernel.
rocket357
Security freak
Excellent...we have achieved some degree of understanding! The thread title, however, makes no claims as to usability =)gx_saurav said:
As for caching...I obviously misunderstood you. Thanks for pointing out the intent of your previous post. I understand that Windows caches dlls and the like, it's done that as far back as I can recall. Linux and BSD, however, do the same, only they tend to focus more on filesystem caching...
As for pagefile/virtual memory/swap (to answer a previous post), Linux uses a swap partition. To me (personal opinion) it makes more sense to keep "scratch" data separate from "real" data. Also, Linux tends to use swap as a "last resort". I've seen my Linux system pushing 980+MB of RAM (big compile while having dozens of tabs open in firefox and listening to music) with only a few KB of swap usage. It *seems* faster to me, and it makes more sense *to me*.
Should Red Hat do kernel audits? Yes. Should all OS's do code audits? Yes. The fact stands alone.
Lastly, I ranted about OpenBSD being more secure...I didn't imply in any way that it's more user friendly (because honestly...it's a nightmare if you're new to it, and it *can* be a pain if you've experience with it). OpenBSD's security record speaks for itself. I'm sure when Vista has been out longer (though it's six month record really isn't bad at all!), then we can all draw more conclusions on it.
Oh, and thanks for taking the time to debate with me...it's been fun.
Edit - speaking of usability/security, I'd like to point out that it's all about choice. If you choose to use Vista, no one can tell *you* otherwise. How one person uses their computer is a highly personal thing, and it's not something that anyone outside of the user can dictate.
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Zeeshan Quireshi
C# Be Sharp !
Now when i give you an apt reply , you start whining .mediator said:
That's whay my point was , if u keep ur system disconnected frm everything then it'll be barely usable .infra_red_dude said:and you call this a usable system??!!!
similarly , Visa(and XP) is supported my almost all software producers , can this be said for BSD ?
BSD is an excellet server os but it's nothing on a desktop .
Heck even OS software users are calling their very own popular distros as Bloat(Ubuntu anyone) . this shows that most so-called linux users(rocket357 specially) are here just to show off that they use linux and not everyone uses it , and now wth the growing popularity of Ubuntu , they are disowning it by calling it bloat ? What kinda logic is this ?
Right said .infra_red_dude said:
but tell this to Rocket357 and Praka who are admant on provind that Vista is Crap and BSD(Linux is bloat as they say) is the best .
I have Win XP , Ubuntu , Gentoo , Solaris and Mac installe on my system and i use each for the purpose i think it suits best
rocket357
Security freak
So if someone uses Windows 98 and makes the claim that their Windows install is as secure as your Vista install, you should accept it as truth? Likewise, Ubuntu and Red Hat, while obviously Linux, are not the same as Hardened Gentoo. I compile all of my stuff from source because a) most OS vendors compile for "typical home users" (which we've established I'm not one of), and b) I know what I'm doing when it comes to installing software from source/using a hardened toolchain. The logic is that I'm not happy with "typical home user" builds...Zeeshan Quireshi said:
No, I'm hell bent on showing that the title of this thread is incorrect. Also, if you read back through my posts, I've stated in numerous places that even OpenBSD has flaws. I've made no claim as to the "perfection" of any OS. I've made no attempt to claim one is best *in ALL situations*. Just for your knowledge, I have two Gentoo machines, one OpenBSD machine, one FreeBSD machine, one Slackware Linux machine, two Windows XP machines, one Windows Server 2003 machine, and one IpCop proxy machine...they all have a purpose.Zeeshan Quireshi said:
Edit - IpCop is based on Slackware, so I guess if we need to get technical, I have TWO Slackware machines...
ummm, are you talking about a single system? (obviously not) I mean, yeah Solaris runs on x86 (I have a virtualized install of Solaris 10 myself), and obviously Gentoo, Ubuntu, and Win XP do, but doesn't Mac require "Mac certified" hardware to install OSX? Not poking fun, I'm just asking for clarification. Also, just out of curiousity, what bootloader are you using for Gentoo?Zeeshan Quireshi said:I have Win XP , Ubuntu , Gentoo , Solaris and Mac installe on my system and i use each for the purpose i think it suits best
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infra_red_dude
Wire muncher!
he's installed mac on his x86 system (thats a hackintosh!). fyi gx, there are numerous dvd distros available which which will give you almost everything out of the box!
imav, i told you to test each and every os wid a positive thot. not jus for finding flaws in it!
zeeshan: yes, the topic is about which os is the most secure and not which os is most usable out of the box! for heaven's sake read the thread title again.. and again.. and again.. and it doesn't even mention the word desktop os anywhere.. i dunno what.. but it deosn't seem to go into most ppl's head!!!
yes, for a person who has specific need ubuntu/suse/fedora are really bloats! gentoo is the best distro for them. when u haf a specific need compile only what is required.
btw, rocket never said bsd is *best* and vista is *crap*. he said it is more secure than vista. thats as simple as it can be! you need an eye checkup for sure.
gx, u haf no idea what a custom compiled gentoo wid X windows consuming less than 100mb of ram can do. so better don't question abt it. and don't ever make the mistake of comparing that system to windows system running in windows classic wid all eye candy turned off. that is sheer stupidity. you haf absolutely no idea about it!
i hafnt used VS2003/5 so i'm not commenting anything on it.
show me one instance where in thread somebody has said that linux is best or bsd is best. they haf used comparitives not superlatives in any post!!!
edit: i've been using linux distros widout a swap partition for years now.
imav, i told you to test each and every os wid a positive thot. not jus for finding flaws in it!
zeeshan: yes, the topic is about which os is the most secure and not which os is most usable out of the box! for heaven's sake read the thread title again.. and again.. and again.. and it doesn't even mention the word desktop os anywhere.. i dunno what.. but it deosn't seem to go into most ppl's head!!!
yes, for a person who has specific need ubuntu/suse/fedora are really bloats! gentoo is the best distro for them. when u haf a specific need compile only what is required.
btw, rocket never said bsd is *best* and vista is *crap*. he said it is more secure than vista. thats as simple as it can be! you need an eye checkup for sure.
gx, u haf no idea what a custom compiled gentoo wid X windows consuming less than 100mb of ram can do. so better don't question abt it. and don't ever make the mistake of comparing that system to windows system running in windows classic wid all eye candy turned off. that is sheer stupidity. you haf absolutely no idea about it!
i hafnt used VS2003/5 so i'm not commenting anything on it.
rite.. problem sorted out. lets change the thread title to "OpenBSD is more secure than vista while vista is more user friendly than BSD" problem solved!!gx said:
correct. i've by-hearted this line now. i see it in every thread of urs. but it doesn't seem to go into ur own head!gx said:
show me one instance where in thread somebody has said that linux is best or bsd is best. they haf used comparitives not superlatives in any post!!!
edit: i've been using linux distros widout a swap partition for years now.
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infra_red_dude
Wire muncher!
yes buddy.. i've checked every thread.. what you 3 keep saying is not that your product is best. but try to show that the other product is worst. its the same both ways!! seriously, i pity ur perspective at looking at things....
rocket357
Security freak
I'm trolling, in case anyone has doubts...hahahaiMav said:infra ... chk for urself every thread ... we arent the ones trolling around ... its always a lin boy or a mac boy
But honestly, isn't the thread title a bit of trolling, too? (i.e. hahaha my OS is better than yours because it's more secure?)...
Isn't that the entire point of this thread? Just curious.
Indeed...infra_red_dude said:
infra_red_dude said:
Ummm...hrmmm. Well, I must admit my Win2k3 install serves just that purpose...finding flaws. I'm currently doing research into Windows security, and I've managed to exploit 2k3 in a few ways (nothing special...mostly smb/IE stuff). Haven't started testing on Slackware yet, but it'll happen soon =).
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