That escalated quickly...damn! I think we need another topic to fight upon. Discussing gore is making this thread a real snuff film.
All I can say is vegans have no right to judge non-vegans since they have never consumed meat. Also, eating vegatables also requires you to kill plants.
pass me someI created this thread to detract the fight going on in the offtopic thread. I think this thread has served its first purpose.. and yea.. the heat is on.. popcorn is popping even without out microwave.
same thing.. "you cannot make it vanish" non-veg food
)
. I said it would be okay if anesthesia becomes the norm, which it clearly isn't the case, not in our country anyway, as you yourself pointed out.
Not sure if anyone is going to read this (it's kinda off-topic anyway) but as a fellow lacto-vegetarian, here are my two cents on this debate:
@the terminator, mastercool8695
Let me start off by saying that I'm pretty sure you guys have good intentions; but perhaps you should realize that your posts come across as slightly patronizing. All of us vegan (and pro-vegans) must realize that to get our points across, we should avoid the holier-than-thou attitude and stop demonizing meat consumers; instead realize that these are just lifestyle choices on their part. I disapprove of my friends carnivorous culinary habits, but I know that if I brand them as ruthless parasites, it's not going to help a lot.
Instead I find that subtly appealing to their conscience is a much better way. Real life example: A friend of mine always used to pester me about my "philosophy" of veganism; considering I'm the only vegetarian in my family. So one day I took her to the nearby kasai. Poor girl still curses me for turning her vegan; at the same time she thanks me for showing her what she had merely read about. This is why I think the vegan vs non-vegan is just another case of pleasure vs pain. Are you willing to forego a significant amount of culinary pleasure, while taking solace from the fact that you are doing what you think is the right thing to do?
"..... what you think is the right thing to do?"
The above statement is why you get responses like these:
Such arguments are an accurate reflection of what (many) non-vegetarians think about veganism. Veganism is, simply put, the ultimate inconvenient truth for those horrified by it's somewhat rigid requirements. It's human nature to find that one loophole to dismiss an otherwise coherent argument. You guys want to consume meat and are fine with it, not a problem with me; as I said earlier, it's your lifestyle choice. However, don't try to equate killing of plants to animal slaughter, because that argument is plain wrong. So here's my personal response to all those who say "But you guys kill plants!!!! Dirty hypocrites!!!"
In my opinion, the "killing" of plants and animals is identical from a biological perspective, but vastly different from an ethical viewpoint. It's not so much about the fact that plants and animals are killed, as it is about the circumstances in which they are killed. People defending non-vegetarianism by citing plant "slaughter" forget one critical point: plants do not feel pain. No, J.C. Bose did not prove otherwise; most (if not all) modern zoologists confirm that his experiments were far from conclusive. So are you comfortable in the knowledge that plate of chicken wings in front of you might have come from an animal who died in pain and terror, as opposed to the side dish of potato fries, whose making caused no such pain?
If and when anesthesia becomes a norm rather than the exception for animal slaughter, perhaps I will take a step back and not worry about it so much, at least I will take solace in the fact the poor animals suffered no pain. Until then, however, stuff like this will claw at my conscience, and I sincerely hope it claws at yours too.
/essay
(DISCLAIMER: Apologies @FuriousGamer for specifically quoting you; but this happens to be one of those rare times when I do disagree with you. My post is addressed towards everyone; no hard feelings, k?
Not sure if anyone is going to read this (it's kinda off-topic anyway) but as a fellow lacto-vegetarian, here are my two cents on this debate:
@the terminator, mastercool8695
Let me start off by saying that I'm pretty sure you guys have good intentions; but perhaps you should realize that your posts come across as slightly patronizing. All of us vegan (and pro-vegans) must realize that to get our points across, we should avoid the holier-than-thou attitude and stop demonizing meat consumers; instead realize that these are just lifestyle choices on their part. I disapprove of my friends carnivorous culinary habits, but I know that if I brand them as ruthless parasites, it's not going to help a lot.
Instead I find that subtly appealing to their conscience is a much better way. Real life example: A friend of mine always used to pester me about my "philosophy" of veganism; considering I'm the only vegetarian in my family. So one day I took her to the nearby kasai. Poor girl still curses me for turning her vegan; at the same time she thanks me for showing her what she had merely read about. This is why I think the vegan vs non-vegan is just another case of pleasure vs pain. Are you willing to forego a significant amount of culinary pleasure, while taking solace from the fact that you are doing what you think is the right thing to do?
"..... what you think is the right thing to do?"
The above statement is why you get responses like these:
Such arguments are an accurate reflection of what (many) non-vegetarians think about veganism. Veganism is, simply put, the ultimate inconvenient truth for those horrified by it's somewhat rigid requirements. It's human nature to find that one loophole to dismiss an otherwise coherent argument. You guys want to consume meat and are fine with it, not a problem with me; as I said earlier, it's your lifestyle choice. However, don't try to equate killing of plants to animal slaughter, because that argument is plain wrong. So here's my personal response to all those who say "But you guys kill plants!!!! Dirty hypocrites!!!"
In my opinion, the "killing" of plants and animals is identical from a biological perspective, but vastly different from an ethical viewpoint. It's not so much about the fact that plants and animals are killed, as it is about the circumstances in which they are killed. People defending non-vegetarianism by citing plant "slaughter" forget one critical point: plants do not feel pain. No, J.C. Bose did not prove otherwise; most (if not all) modern zoologists confirm that his experiments were far from conclusive. So are you comfortable in the knowledge that plate of chicken wings in front of you might have come from an animal who died in pain and terror, as opposed to the side dish of potato fries, whose making caused no such pain?
If and when anesthesia becomes a norm rather than the exception for animal slaughter, perhaps I will take a step back and not worry about it so much, at least I will take solace in the fact the poor animals suffered no pain. Until then, however, stuff like this will claw at my conscience, and I sincerely hope it claws at yours too.
/essay
(DISCLAIMER: Apologies @FuriousGamer for specifically quoting you; but this happens to be one of those rare times when I do disagree with you. My post is addressed towards everyone; no hard feelings, k?
...
^^ Dude it is Fight thread. So be cool and enjoy the show....
But fighting on a single thing for days is not cool!
That's my point.
