*** Science Or God? ***

[doomgiver]

just a question, if there is a "god" why didn't he prevent from the himalayan tsunami from happening and killing all his "followers"?

I am SORRY, my Faith-o-Meter(TM) has just issued an urgent alert warning me of incoming Logical Questions(TM). Since I am allergic to logic and reason, I must not answer that question.

Sorry, but I feel this is silly rhetoric in the name of logic. The "professor" conveniently fails to mention the most rational line of thought - agnosticism.

The very fact that theists "believe" in god means that they are being subjective rather than objective. Belief in something is not a logical deduction of any hitherto unexplained event.

Same is the case with atheists. They also "believe", they believe that god doesn't exist.

Both theists and atheists don't know for sure whether god exists or not. They believe, and their beliefs should be respected.

Pure logic states that unless the existence of god is proved/disproved, we don't know for sure. We can only hold beliefs. And people who don't hold any beliefs are the rational agnostics. I'm agnostic and science supports agnosticism, not atheism.

moniker, i found this awesome video, just listen to him and see him rip apart that "professor" :

[YOUTUBE]fvg3mRZXut4[/YOUTUBE]

just listen to the first 2 minutes at minimum, he demolishes the entire video in that part. thats how fragile mr kreeft's arguments are.

i'll do it in text form :

Spoiler

Most pseudoscientific arguments are [logical fallacies.](*yourlogicalfallacyis.com/)

1. Prime mover argument, which uses the [special pleading](*yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading) fallacy - Everything that moves has a mover... except god. he's special. It's also the [god of the gaps](God of the gaps - RationalWiki) argument. This one is fun to laugh at with the term goddidit.

2. The same argument, using the same logical fallacy. Everything has a cause... except god. he's special.

3. The same argument. This is getting dull...

4. You guessed it. Same argument.

5. He does some off-the cuff [straw man arguments](*yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman), but they aren't central to his presentation.

6. He goes back to his tired [special pleading](*yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading) fallacy.

7. He starts with a [straw man arguments](*yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman) - "All time is relative to matter" is a really sloppy and inaccurate description of general relativity... and that's being generous. Then he goes back to [special pleading](*yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading).

8. [straw man arguments](*yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman)

9. He changes things up with [ambiguity](*yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ambiguity) by collapsing faith, evidence, belief, and confidence into a single word: faith. The keystone is that evidence = information that can be independently reviewed, can be falsified (proved wrong), can be questioned, and can be tested without being first accepted. Faith is any reason to have confidence in a claim that isn't evidence. Then he redefines reason without explaining what is reason. He's using sloppy logic with logical fallacies and calling it reason.

^ thanks to reddit.

Truth is, people who keep faith will conveniently ignore ALL EVIDENCE. Just try it. Even when faced with a mountain of counter-evidence, they'll stick to their dumb gods.

 

[ico]

[YOUTUBE]h8MdhSpDZD4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Flash]

^ Somebody translate please..

 

[Anorion]

^omg that is really bad. Totally ashamed. That is not representative of our culture and Hinduism. Or even theists for that matter. Entire crowd is brainwashed, illiterate. Education will really help.

and you put your children in a convent school, do you know what is taught there? They teach that Adam was born and he ate a fruit because he was hungry or they are taught the definition of Darwin. They teach that first the water was born and then insects were born in the water then the insect got a tail and became a fish and then the tail of the fish fell down and became a frog. Then the frog grew a tail and became a monkey and then the monkey lost a tail and became man.
I am very surprised, if this is possible, go to Ahmedabad where you will find many swimming fish in the sabarmati, why haven't all these fish turned into frogs yet? And if frogs grow tails and become monkeys, then what about the frogs in Vadodara's drains that keep going TRRRRR TRRRRR, eating our ears, why haven't these become monkeys yet? (laughter and applause) And if by cutting the tails of monkeys and female monkeys you get men, then what about the red faced monkeys jumping about the terraces of Vadodara? These should be taking part in beauty contests.
(applause)
(Other learned person smiles and goes wow)
We are progeny of sages, and today our own children go far away from our own culture, and their heads are being filled with you know what? That every sunday eat eggs, and watch dirty movies on tv, and convert all of India into a hell like environment. (applause)
And keep feeding eggs to your children. Where did the egg come from? An Egg comes from lust. And cow's milk? Even the cow's own calf says "ma" as soon as it is born and this brings about motherly feelings in the cow, and the milk we get is due to the motherly feelings of the cow. If you feed them cow's milk, they will (not sure of this part - do excercises like a calf?) but if you feed them buffalo milk, and say "Son, pappu, bring the water", Pappu will go "Mummy, I cannot lift this." How will he lift it, he has drunk Buffalo milk?
(Applause and Laughter)

 

[Flash]

^ Thanks, [MENTION=56202]Anorion[/MENTION]. People like this, some day become as Jim Jones.

 

[Anorion]

[YOUTUBE]GPogg9mcQKs[/YOUTUBE]

much better

 

[abhigeek]

and you put your children in a convent school, do you know what is taught there? They teach that Adam was born and he ate a fruit because he was hungry or they are taught the definition of Darwin. They teach that first the water was born and then insects were born in the water then the insect got a tail and became a fish and then the tail of the fish fell down and became a frog. Then the frog grew a tail and became a monkey and then the monkey lost a tail and became man.
I am very surprised, if this is possible, go to Ahmedabad where you will find many swimming fish in the sabarmati, why haven't all these fish turned into frogs yet? And if frogs grow tails and become monkeys, then what about the frogs in Vadodara's drains that keep going TRRRRR TRRRRR, eating our ears, why haven't these become monkeys yet? (laughter and applause) And if by cutting the tails of monkeys and female monkeys you get men, then what about the red faced monkeys jumping about the terraces of Vadodara? These should be taking part in beauty contests.
(applause)
(Other learned person smiles and goes wow)
We are progeny of sages, and today our own children go far away from our own culture, and their heads are being filled with you know what? That every sunday eat eggs, and watch dirty movies on tv, and convert all of India into a hell like environment. (applause)
And keep feeding eggs to your children. Where did the egg come from? An Egg comes from lust. And cow's milk? Even the cow's own calf says "ma" as soon as it is born and this brings about motherly feelings in the cow, and the milk we get is due to the motherly feelings of the cow. If you feed them cow's milk, they will (not sure of this part - do excercises like a calf?) but if you feed them buffalo milk, and say "Son, pappu, bring the water", Pappu will go "Mummy, I cannot lift this." How will he lift it, he has drunk Buffalo milk?
(Applause and Laughter)

WTF did I just read ....
I wanna burn my eyes out.....

 

[ASHISH65]

[YOUTUBE]h8MdhSpDZD4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[whitestar_999]

It will take much more than that to conclusively prove telepathy.Assuming that it does relate to increased mental capacity if telepathy exist it should certainly not be found in those who are willing to demonstrate it publicly.

 

[Chetan1991]

just a question, if there is a "god" why didn't he prevent from the himalayan tsunami from happening and killing all his "followers"?

This and these

Is [an omnipotent being] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

are very ignorant question asked by atheists because they have a ridiculous notion of God.
Do they assume God is a puppet master constantly pulling strings on the world, or like a SIMS player who is looking down upon the world, and going "Oh ****! Fire! I have to send help there." LOL.

We have been given free will to do as we please. We can question our actions and our thought process and decide what to do, and must accept the consequences of our actions. If God was to intervene in every aspect of our life, what would be the point of our free will?

As for the not preventing evil argument, here a story:

A wealthy man is watching a football match with his young daughter, who is watching a game of football for the first time.
She sees the players chasing a ball on the field, and asks her father,"All those men are chasing after one ball. Daddy, you're so rich, why don't you give everyone of them a ball each, so that they won't fight anymore?"
The man laughs at his daughter's innocence, and tells her if every one of them had their own ball, there would be no game to watch.

While the parable is used as analogy for explaining why all our wants can never be fulfilled, it can explain good and evil as well.
To create a line you need two points in a plane. Similarly, there is a need of both good and evil to create this dimension of our nature.
Our base animal nature is narcissistic, cruel, selfish and self centered (just observe young children.) while we learn values such as compassion and kindness as we grow up. Movies and TV shows often depict this conflict of different aspects of our nature.

The idea of a God, who should intervene in our destiny, and change the course of our life is ridiculous.
I might be having problems articulating my thought process. I'll explain properly once I have assimilated the information.

 

[ico]

Do they assume God is a puppet master constantly pulling strings on the world, or like a SIMS player who is looking down upon the world, and going "Oh ****! Fire! I have to send help there." LOL.

Atheists don't. 99% theists do.

 

[Chetan1991]

@ doomgiver

^ this is the worst thing you could've posted. you;ve just undermined your entire argument.
Religion has cause WAAAAAY more suffering, wars, pain and chaos than a godless society ever could. The spanish inquisition, south american tribes sacrificing living people, islam, christianity, just a few examples. (and look at hindu-muslim riots in the indian sub-continent, lol. you conviniently forgot that, didnt you?)


^Irreligion by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
its very dangerous to go outside, one out of every 6 people is a murderous atheist.



feminism and communism are misguided attempts to right the wrongs of THE MASSIVE CLUSTERFK that has been the last 4000 years.
its thanks to RELIGION, yes, RELIGION, that women are in such a sorry state.
every bad thing can be traced back to religion. seriously, if there was no religion, people would be 10x better.


I wanted to write a short post, but what the hell, its not like people are gonna change their minds even though they are wrong.


and before you start : yes, god does not exist, i hate the concept of god, since it has bought nothing but misery for all of mankind. yes, i take great pleasure in ripping apart the pathetic lies put forward by those who believe in god.

Why filled with so much hate buddy?

You're putting all religions in one basket.
I will not discuss abrahamic religions since they explicitly say their followers are superior to others, their belief is the only one that is right and any other belief is wrong, and they must show other ignorant people the right path, much like "the white man's burden". That is enough to show they are somewhat misguided. I can't discuss it further because I haven't studied these religions much.

Tell me about religion fueled violence started by Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists before the 1940s. Its a genuine question, not a rhetorical one.

If Hindu-Muslim communal riots are a result of only religious differences, why weren't they as prevalent before the country's partition? The Muslims have been here for over a millennium.

I have mentioned it before, majority of humans NEED to believe in something. If they don't have religion, they'll make another one by some other name.

if there was no religion, people would be 10x better.

NO.
Not unless every single human becomes capable of deep introspection, self discovery, criticizing oneself, taking responsibility for one's own actions, thought AND emotions, being independent of external validation, sticking by their values.....the list goes on...
You know that's not happening any time soon.

It is not the truth of God's existence that matters so much for the sake of majority of humans, but the idea of God, an ideal they can look up to and believe in, that matters. Do not give comments on this yet. I will expand on this.

TL;DR : i just won this debate.

XD. and I proclaim myself the ruler of the whole universe! Everyone bow down to me!!

edit : i have no problems with switching to god's side, PROVIDED you provide irrefutable proof. till date, NOTHING anyone has ever posted can be taken for proof. only bad/invalid arguments and illogical rants.

Good to know. BTW I'm not scared of atheists. They're just people with different beliefs. Its the fanatics that are dangerous.

- - - Updated - - -

Atheists don't. 99% theists do.

By looking at the questions atheists put, it seems that it is their assumption as well.
I am a theist but that's not my thinking. So there.

I know religions are followed by lots of idiots with ridiculous beliefs, but that doesn't discredit the whole ideology.

 

[abhigeek]

[MENTION=22157]Chetan1991[/MENTION]
If God doesn't determine our actions? Then what is use of worshiping him/her/them (whatever).....
And what is role of God? Sit back enjoying world show? Killings, Wars , Rapes etc.....

What if God is just imagination of mankind?
Created by ancient smart people to civilized the mankind (as there were no police and laws) in name of fear..

 

[whitestar_999]

You can quote my sig with my name,i won't mind.My sig is there for a reason & not because it is an indication of my affiliation(theist or atheist,i leave it to your imagination).As for that good & evil analogy,it was week.You can not say that Nazism,Fascism & various other genocides were necessary "to create this dimension of our nature".As for free will since you claim to be following non-abrahamic religions you seems to be forgetting the destiny/karma concept.Bhishma had no choice but to fight for kauravas just like his death was also pre-destined by a woman's wraith,same is the case with almost every major character in Mahabharata.Free will is not absolute just like almost any other thing in Hinduism.Even all knowing trinity can not circumvent this karma/destiny concept.

 

[ico]

By looking at the questions atheists put, it seems that it is their assumption as well.
I am a theist but that's not my thinking. So there.

Actually it is a good argument if you look at it from their side. They only use it because it takes care of 99% of theists. Doesn't it?

 

[doomgiver]

I have mentioned it before, majority of humans NEED to believe in something. If they don't have religion, they'll make another one by some other name.

No, humans have been FORCED to NEED to believe in something. this is why EVERY SINGLE CHILD IS BRAINWASHED, by these few words "Acche kaam karna, beta, varna bhagwaan dand dega" (Do good deeds or god will punish you). Nobody reqires a god. If you NEED a god or something to believe in, to keep in you in line, and behaving good, then im sorry to say, you are a terrible human being. ergo, all theists are terrible human beings.

NO.
Not unless every single human becomes capable of deep introspection, self discovery, criticizing oneself, taking responsibility for one's own actions, thought AND emotions, being independent of external validation, sticking by their values.....the list goes on...
You know that's not happening any time soon.

It is not the truth of God's existence that matters so much for the sake of majority of humans, but the idea of God, an ideal they can look up to and believe in, that matters. Do not give comments on this yet. I will expand on this.

every single human is capable of all that. those who have done it, have RENOUNCED god. each and EVERY single point you have said is never followed by theists. let me break it down for you :

1. deep introspection : never done, actively discouraged. every religious book tries to force people to follow certain rules. those rules ARE NOT GOOD for the people. your entire religion depends on brainwashed people blindly following one another.
2. self discovery : never done, actively discouraged. tell me, how many religions try to describe the human mind, soul and body? none. thats right.
3. criticizing oneself : ok, everyone does it, theists more so.
4. taking responsiblity : LOL. theists NEVER TAKE ANY RESPONSIBLITY. "bhagwaan karega", "bhagwaan ne kiya", "bhagwaan tune aisa kyu kiya" (god will do it, its the will of god, oh god why ddi you do this)
5. independent of external validation : YOU are the ones seeking validation, not us. YOU are the one who wants there to be a god, not us. we can do just fine without a god, thank you very much.
6. atheists arent the ones who go to a temple and burn crores of rupees and tons of gold in donations. we ACTUALLY help people in need.

i dont know where you;re gettting all this BS from, but thank you very much, you;re undermining your own arguments.

XD. and I proclaim myself the ruler of the whole universe! Everyone bow down to me!!

see? this is how silly it sounds. you just say "there is x and y", and dont give proof. there has been no evidence till now of a god or something.

 

[whitestar_999]

There is something called credibility in scientific world like peer reviewed journals published in top scientific magazines/papers etc & telepathy certainly doesn't qualify on this account.type theory of relativity in google search & hit enter,now type telepathy in google search & enter,see the difference.The day you get similar results for both searches will be the day you claim it to be scientifically proven but until then you can only call it "a fascinating concept with some potential".

 

[amjath]

An apt movie is released for this thread topic, just go and watch it.

 

[snap]

An apt movie is released for this thread topic, just go and watch it.

which one?

 

[Anorion]

interstellar