Apple Previews Mac OS X Snow Leopard to Developers

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FilledVoid

Who stole my Alpaca!
Heh, Just see him once on IRC and all your respect for Filled Void will evaporate.
:( .

Apple then released Mac OS X 10.1 a year later as a major update (more than a service pack, less than a complete overhaul) that didn’t bring in any fancy new features but added a boatload of improvements all over the system and made Mac OS X usable

I definitely understand this one. I wouldn't mind purchasing something if it came with Major Updates or huge performance gains. Giving that for free is definitely nice also. But I wouldn't mind the investment either.

Since Apple already set that precedent, there is now the possibility that Snow Leopard might be a free upgrade.

Now this makes absolute sense. I'm pretty sure it would only please the customer base that Apple has already by another free update :). They could always charge for a new OS when they come out with something innovative and I'm sure the community would be thrilled with it .

However, there’s also the very real (and more likely) possibility that Apple might charge for it, but an amount much less than what they do for a full blown upgrade with major new features ($129). Macworld editors have guestimated that it will be around $30. The Apple of 2002 was much different from the Apple of 2008, so I don’t think a free update is on the cards.

Would you get it based on the facts on the table which are near to nil considering that the dev's have signed a NDA and hence theres nothing on paper as a fact. Other than the fact that its better optimized and future innovations will make use of this platform and might actually charge you for a new release then also. For this lets look at an example. Would you upgrade with the current information on the table or preferraby wait till someone has tested it and confirmed some noticeable gains for the money? But then again its way too early to guesstimate that. I've always noticed that Apple has an Ace up its sleeve when the time comes to its products.

However what I would like to really know is that whether all the Mac users on this board actually upgrade onces a new product hits the shelf or is there someone who actually is satisifed with the old product they are using?

The other thing you offhandedly threw in was that it was “lousy coding” on their part. I don’t know whether you have used Mac OS X or not but anyone who has can clearly and categorically state that it’s not the result of lousy coding. Lousy coding does not result in something so terrific.

Basic use yes. Nothing to be proud of . Although the missing mouse button just freaks e out :D .Im not saying that they actually threw in random bits of code from every other place and stitched it up together.Hell no. That would be quite a silly on my part. But rather stating that they are releasing a product to optimze an older product.

Or in other words we did release an OS which could have worked much more efficiently. But Guess what.. Its your lucky day. We are coming out with an update which will make your computer as fast as a ferrari (if not more) and its only coming out at $30. Not to mention that it sort of states that the OS you are using is quite inefficient?

Now that Mac OS X has established itself as a force to be reckoned with, someone needed to take a bold step and do away with everything that’s holding it back to prepare it for even more drastic enhancements in future.

True. But Vista sort of released itself with the same attitude or at least thats what I understand from gx's posts about Windows each time he talks about Vista. Noentheless I'm thinking that a good portion of the users feel alienated in some way because of it. However the future will tell I guess. Something tells me by SP2 Vista will probably be wehre XP SP2 is :).

Fire away with any more questions you have (though don’t become too technical )

I'm the last person who is technical about anything :). I really don't care about whether someone is running Apple, Linux or Windows. Although I do see myself buying one of the Macbooks and somehow getting Linux/Mac OS (not even sure if dual booting works on it) and before everyone stones me to death may I answer the question. "But Why? Why on earth would you install Ubuntu on a MacBook?" .

Because I can. Oh and I need a new laptop which looks nice :)
 
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Good job there Aayush. I want to make a few comments:

krazzy, infra_red_dude and kalpik are other people on this forum who, like you, have a passion for a particular platform but are not crazy zealots (which I admit I can be sometimes).
You can be sometimes ? You always go about singing praise for your platform without trying to think beyond the picture. Thats hardly the kind of attitude expected from a person who writes for others to read, but in your case I can take an exception. If I were an Apple, Inc. lover, I would find your words highly inspiring and would enjoy them endlessly. There can be no doubt of it. And since you write for the same company you idolise, I recommend you keep up this attitude. It might not give you a high amount of respect elsewhere, but in the case of Apple Magazines, you will sell like hot cakes.

Apple then released Mac OS X 10.1 a year later as a major update (more than a service pack, less than a complete overhaul) that didn’t bring in any fancy new features but added a boatload of improvements all over the system and made Mac OS X usable. It was a free update, but one that people would happily have paid for given the amount of improvements it brought.

Since Apple already set that precedent, there is now the possibility that Snow Leopard might be a free upgrade. However, there’s also the very real (and more likely) possibility that Apple might charge for it, but an amount much less than what they do for a full blown upgrade with major new features ($129). Macworld editors have guestimated that it will be around $30. The Apple of 2002 was much different from the Apple of 2008, so I don’t think a free update is on the cards.
That, IMO, is a very valid outlook and prediction. I think the price may be closer to 25$, but thats just me.

There is this fact that Mac10.6 is called Snow Leopard. So it sounds more like a continuation of the previous release. Otherwise we might have seen Mac 10.6 Lion instead. Just a comment about naming which I have no intention of using as a solid proof.

The other thing you offhandedly threw in was that it was “lousy coding” on their part. I don’t know whether you have used Mac OS X or not but anyone who has can clearly and categorically state that it’s not the result of lousy coding. Lousy coding does not result in something so terrific.
Lousiness in coding needn't translate to an ugly interface, and beautiful interfaces needn't mean lousy coding. Thats as far as my experiences with programming go.

Besides, the word Terrific is often relative and contextual. You know how the saying goes - no matter how good it is(or you think it is), it can get much better.

Snow Leopard is absolutely vital to the further growth of Mac OS X, much like Puma (10.1) was all those years ago. What you might not know is that right now, due to a series of events in the past, Mac OS X has a lot of legacy support—the remains of the classic environment (from the Mac OS 8 and 9 days), support for the PowerPC platform, for apps developed in Carbon as well as Cocoa and, of course, for the Intel platform, both 32 and 64 bit. There might be more legacy code that I’m unaware of.
From what most people have seen and from what has happened till now, Apple is hardly the kind of company which would care about legacy support. And this is proved from the fact that even Macintosh 9 is not supported anymore by their software.

But I see hardly any reason to complain here. Apple always has this policy that development must take place, such that any factor which pulls it down must be immidiately removed, instead of finding a workaround.

Such a thought would be laughed at by GNU coders, but Apple is different again. Apple is not a company looking at the cost to performance ratio. Its all about creating products in a way it likes, and them being accepted by its ever ready fans.

Now that Mac OS X has established itself as a force to be reckoned with, someone needed to take a bold step and do away with everything that’s holding it back to prepare it for even more drastic enhancements in future. The more you keep clinging to the past, the harder it is to embrace what’s next. I’m sure it will anger a minor group in the Mac community, and Steve Jobs does too, but they think (and I agree) that it’s gotta be done.
Once again, let me tell you that Macintosh can never become a force to be reckoned with since its completely isolated in nature. It has support only for its own platform, which itself is ever varying and the idea that you can expect your apple PC to last long as a stable product is riddiculous. Unless you keep upgrading, you are sure to loose out a vast maximum.

But again, all this critisism on apple has absolutely no value, since apple user base is totally different from the standard. So again, a full loud get going to apple.

I actually wish they would make Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard a fully 64-bit Intel native operating system that only runs Cocoa applications. Sure, it will completely screw things up right now (no Adobe or Microsoft applications) and even my (and Milind’s) Mac won’t be able to run it, but I won’t mind running Leopard for another couple of years. Since Snow Leopard won’t have any feature additions, I won’t be missing much. And by the time the next feature packed release comes along, my Mac will be old enough for us to part ways. I know that’s not on the cards yet but that would’ve meant a much better Mac OS X.
Well, if I might be able to have a word here, I would say its much much better for apple if they move back to a non x86 platform. PowerPC Processors are once again very cheap. This is evident by the fact that the Xbox 360 is available at a starting price of like 300$. And it has both a powerful GPU and a triple core PPC CPU. So I think it would be great if apple again started selling IBM PPC machines

As far as running microsoft and adobe applications goes, you made a big mark there. If apple fails to support something, then thanks to this new hyper speed race for the perfect OS, its sure to loose out a big fat market share. Back when Macintosh 10 appeared, the only competing platform was windows, since Solaris, BSD and Linux were not home ready yet. Now, with hundreds of operating system for every perpose in the market, I doubt such a drastic move can be benificial to apple in the short to medium run.

True. But Vista sort of released itself with the same attitude or at least thats what I understand from gx's posts about Windows each time he talks about Vista. Noentheless I'm thinking that a good portion of the users feel alienated in some way because of it. However the future will tell I guess. Something tells me by SP2 Vista will probably be wehre XP SP2 is .

Thats a difficult thing to beleive in. The problem is, in windows XP's days, there was nothing else worth using, so everyone bought it. Then the SPs slowly increased its creditability. But now in vista's case, the picture is a bit too different.

I'm the last person who is technical about anything . I really don't care about whether someone is running Apple, Linux or Windows. Although I do see myself buying one of the Macbooks and somehow getting Linux/Mac OS (not even sure if dual booting works on it) and before everyone stones me to death may I answer the question. "But Why? Why on earth would you install Ubuntu on a MacBook?" .

Because I can. Oh and I need a new laptop which looks nice
Well, one of my friends did a similar thing a few months back by buying a 60K sony VAIO and installing Ubuntu on it, but nobody asked him why. They actually said him congratulations. (the congrutations part was because he was hardly a month into ubuntu and he already found out how to install it in a VAIO and enjoy it).
 
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goobimama

 Macboy
In my point of view (a very late one at that) this is NOT a service pack. Snow Leopard is not just about bug fixes or optimising the OS. It is about 'adding features', albeit ones that an end user cannot perceive other than in the form of gains in speed. All that GPU action, multi-core optimisation, Quicktime X, are all new features, not just bug fixes of an earlier OS - Leopard.

As far as the PowerPC argument goes, it is long since known that PowerPC is a dead platform. The last PPC was shipped in Dec 2005. Two years later they got Leopard, working seamlessly (just one edition!). And two years after that Snow Leopard will debut. That's a whole 4 years staying with the latest and greatest OS. I would say it is not that bad a deal.

Considering that most of the Macs out there right now are Intel based, it would be logical to put full effort in optimising the code to run on Intel machines. I too don't mind not being able to install Snow Leopard on my 32bit system, 64bit is surely the way to go with this one...
 
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aryayush

aryayush

Aspiring Novelist
Would you get it based on the facts on the table which are near to nil considering that the dev's have signed a NDA and hence theres nothing on paper as a fact. Other than the fact that its better optimized and future innovations will make use of this platform and might actually charge you for a new release then also. For this lets look at an example. Would you upgrade with the current information on the table or preferraby wait till someone has tested it and confirmed some noticeable gains for the money?
Of course, we’ll wait for the tests but in the two years of my association with the company, I’ve never known them to outrightly lie about anything. Marketing double-talk? Sure. But promising something and not delivering? No. In any case, if someone isn’t satisfied with just the performance gains in Snow Leopard, they can always just sit it out till the next release comes along a year later. They’ll be able to purchase it for $129 and upgrade directly from Leopard.

But then again its way too early to guesstimate that. I've always noticed that Apple has an Ace up its sleeve when the time comes to its products.
Yeah, that’s not outside the realm of possibility. There might be a “One more thing…” at the Macworld ’09 keynote where Steve Jobs announced some mind-blowing new feature with dramatic flair. However, I absolutely do not think that’s on the cards (and I have a tendency to be right when it comes to Apple).

However what I would like to really know is that whether all the Mac users on this board actually upgrade onces a new product hits the shelf or is there someone who actually is satisifed with the old product they are using?
Well, except for the battery life, I’m very pleased with my first generation iPhone and do not feel any urge to upgrade to the newer version. Having said that, I was one of the few who couldn’t wait for Leopard to be launched and used the developer preview for three months before its release. I’m definitely getting it, no matter what the improvements.

Or in other words we did release an OS which could have worked much more efficiently. But Guess what.. Its your lucky day. We are coming out with an update which will make your computer as fast as a ferrari (if not more) and its only coming out at $30. Not to mention that it sort of states that the OS you are using is quite inefficient?
No, it doesn’t. It’s just accepting the fact that writing software, specially the size of an operating system, over decades is a process that never quite ends. For the past seven years, they’ve stabilised a completely new platform, kept support for all the customers who were reticent about upgrading and continually added some amazing new features to the mix (Spotlight and Exposé being prime examples).

I actually think it’s quite uncharacteristic and brave of a company led by Steve Jobs to acknowledge that fact and let go of their show and glamour for this one release and focus on perfecting it. It takes strength of character to sell that idea to your customers (who’re always looking for sweeping new changes that will blow them away, specially from a company like Apple and man like Steve Jobs) and I’m glad that Apple possess it.

True. But Vista sort of released itself with the same attitude or at least thats what I understand from gx's posts about Windows each time he talks about Vista. Noentheless I'm thinking that a good portion of the users feel alienated in some way because of it. However the future will tell I guess. Something tells me by SP2 Vista will probably be wehre XP SP2 is :).
I’m not sure what prompted you to compare Vista, of all things, to Snow Leopard but they’re like two opposite ends of a pole. Whereas Vista was supposed to be all things to all people, a revolutionary new operating system that took the world by storm and added thousands of new features, Snow Leopard is just Leopard with bug fixes. It took seven years to get Vista to the market and Snow Leopard will take less than a couple. Vista is a complete and utter failure (critically defamed and shunned by customers and the general public) while Leopard, which Snow Leopard will build on, is a resounding success. There are no similarities at all.

Plus, to compare Vista to Mac OS X is an insult to Apple. Mac OS X is Apple’s core strength, just like Windows is Microsoft’s. And while Microsoft doesn’t mind screwing up with Windows, I’m damn sure that, even if Apple fails in all other fields (and they’re showing no signs of it), Mac OS X is going to continue to be a shining beacon of everything the company stands for, everything that it right with the company—at least as long as Steve Jobs stands at the helm.

Not to mention the fact that it is not just about Macs anymore. The more Mac OS X improves, the stronger the foundation is laid for the Apple TV, iPod touch and the iPhone (and whatever other new products they might have up their sleeves). Mark my words, Snow Leopard is going to be a success.

I do see myself buying one of the Macbooks and somehow getting Linux/Mac OS (not even sure if dual booting works on it)
“Somehow”? LOL! It’s pretty much as easy as popping in the DVD and hitting the Install button. Dual-booting is a painless process on a Mac. :)
 

The_Devil_Himself

die blizzard die! D3?
could you all please underline the main points when you post rather long posts,just like 10th grade students do in their history exam,its kinda boring to read whole posts.:S
 
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aryayush

aryayush

Aspiring Novelist
In my point of view (a very late one at that) this is NOT a service pack. Snow Leopard is not just about bug fixes or optimising the OS. It is about 'adding features', albeit ones that an end user cannot perceive other than in the form of gains in speed. All that GPU action, multi-core optimisation, Quicktime X, are all new features, not just bug fixes of an earlier OS - Leopard.
Yeah, just to make it clear, I know this. I just didn’t want to make it an argument in the OS’ favour. It can be categorised under performance enhancement—how they do it is entirely their lookout.

As far as the PowerPC argument goes, it is long since known that PowerPC is a dead platform. The last PPC was shipped in Dec 2005. Two years later they got Leopard, working seamlessly (just one edition!). And two years after that Snow Leopard will debut. That's a whole 4 years staying with the latest and greatest OS. I would say it is not that bad a deal.
Six years, actually, assuming that 10.7 ships two years after Snow Leopard. Snow Leopard is just Leopard for the PowerPC users anyway (i.e. even if the platform was supported).

Considering that most of the Macs out there right now are Intel based, it would be logical to put full effort in optimising the code to run on Intel machines. I too don't mind not being able to install Snow Leopard on my 32bit system, 64bit is surely the way to go with this one...
Though, just in case you didn’t know, that’s not happening. 32-bit will be supported in Snow Leopard. I bet Apple’s developers are cursing Intel right now for releasing those Core Duos. What was the whole point! If Apple had directly been able to jump to Core 2 Duos, their life would’ve been so much easier and my MacBook Pro would’ve been 64-bit.
 

infra_red_dude

Wire muncher!
I’m pretty sure his question was basically, “Will there be any big, sweeping changes that will take us by awe?” and my answer to that was in the negative. By saying that there wouldn’t be a GUI update, I meant that Snow Leopard won’t be what Vista was to XP, or even what Leopard was to Tiger. The GUI will look exactly as it does now in Leopard.

Of course, I’ve never tried to hide the fact that I know little about the technological underpinnings of Mac OS X, so it’s not like I was trying to feign having extensive knowledge about it. I was just trying to answer the question using the terminology that he used. I’m pretty sure I got the message across. :)
My point was to get across the msg, anything that you say about the Mac platform or GX about Windows is taken seriously while nobody gives a damn when you or GX say something about Windows and Mac respectively.

So when you post something be 100% sure about it

In my point of view (a very late one at that) this is NOT a service pack. Snow Leopard is not just about bug fixes or optimising the OS. It is about 'adding features', albeit ones that an end user cannot perceive other than in the form of gains in speed. All that GPU action, multi-core optimisation, Quicktime X, are all new features, not just bug fixes of an earlier OS - Leopard.
Never believe anything that companies like Apple, Microsoft etc. say about their future product. You never know what comes out till a stabilized beta is out. Not blaming any company but this is how things turn to during development.

could you all please underline the main points when you post rather long posts,just like 10th grade students do in their history exam,its kinda boring to read whole posts.:S
+1000000000000......... oh man.. no second thots about it! :D
 

FilledVoid

Who stole my Alpaca!
No, it doesn’t. It’s just accepting the fact that writing software, specially the size of an operating system, over decades is a process that never quite ends. For the past seven years, they’ve stabilised a completely new platform, kept support for all the customers who were reticent about upgrading and continually added some amazing new features to the mix (Spotlight and Exposé being prime examples).

I actually think it’s quite uncharacteristic and brave of a company led by Steve Jobs to acknowledge that fact and let go of their show and glamour for this one release and focus on perfecting it. It takes strength of character to sell that idea to your customers (who’re always looking for sweeping new changes that will blow them away, specially from a company like Apple and man like Steve Jobs) and I’m glad that Apple possess it.

Its not the process Im questioning . Its the actual fact of releasing a whole Operating system to optimize an existing one :|. Remember as of such they haven't promised anything as of yet. The fact that they will release a new feature is just an assumption. here are the features already listed for Leopard *www.apple.com/macosx/technology/ . So basically it had all these features in the OS you re using. Rather they are releasing something that enhances the performace of the product you are using. Which soudns like a fix to me.

I’m not sure what prompted you to compare Vista, of all things, to Snow Leopard but they’re like two opposite ends of a pole.

I didn't mean to compare Vista and Leopard. I merely stated that Vista sort of embraced that everyone would accept moving on with new technology and get off their old 486's as everyone here puts it. At the moment alot of folks dont seem to be happy about it. But I guess Apple folks wouldn't mind since the hardware is restricted and hence are in a controlled environment.

“Somehow”? LOL! It’s pretty much as easy as popping in the DVD and hitting the Install button. Dual-booting is a painless process on a Mac.
Thats good to know. :)

could you all please underline the main points when you post rather long posts,just like 10th grade students do in their history exam,its kinda boring to read whole posts.:S
:D Sorry I'll refrain from posting more than you can comprehend. j/k See you in IRC.
 
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As far as the PowerPC argument goes, it is long since known that PowerPC is a dead platform. The last PPC was shipped in Dec 2005. Two years later they got Leopard, working seamlessly (just one edition!). And two years after that Snow Leopard will debut. That's a whole 4 years staying with the latest and greatest OS. I would say it is not that bad a deal.
For macs may be, but I think PowerPC is an excellent platform for computers.
I am still hoping tat one day, Apple will realise its mistake and go back to POWER architecture.
It will ensure that there are lesser hackintoshes around.
 
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aryayush

aryayush

Aspiring Novelist
I hope you realise that a major share of Apple’s recent success is due to the move to Intel. If there’s one thing that wasn’t a mistake, it was to leave PowerPC behind and get with the times.

I find it really amusing when people say stuff like this—deserting PowerPC was a mistake for Apple and iPods sell only because they can be hack to run Linux variations. No offense to PowerPC or Linux but those two are the dumbest statements ever and really show that you (as in the person who’s saying it) have no idea about anything even remotely related to Apple.

Don’t be offended by what I’m saying. Just trying to be frank. I hope you realise some day that you just don’t get Apple and stop pretending like you do. One example is when you said that they might price it at $25. In Apple’s entire product lineup, there isn’t a single product that’s priced at a number that ends in 5 (or 4.99).

The moment someone says something like that, I immediately realise that he thinks Apple is just another company that does what other companies do. If there is one company in the industry that definitely does things differently and always prefers its own approach, no matter how ridiculed it may be, it’s Apple. They’re just different, for better or for worse, and if you don’t think so, you just do not know Apple. :)
 

goobimama

 Macboy
However what I would like to really know is that whether all the Mac users on this board actually upgrade onces a new product hits the shelf or is there someone who actually is satisifed with the old product they are using?
Yep! I'm more than satisfied with my iMac and feel no need to upgrade.

My point was to get across the msg, anything that you say about the Mac platform or GX about Windows is taken seriously while nobody gives a damn when you or GX say something about Windows and Mac respectively.

So when you post something be 100% sure about it
Well hey! Why have this thread in the first place? No one has any proof of what the OS is actually going to be like. We are all just speculating.
 
@Aayush,does your MacBook Pro not have a C2D?All C2Ds and later processors are 64 bit ones.Not sure about your MBP but Milind's iMac has C2D 2.0Ghz and can easily run 64 bit OS X.
 
OP
aryayush

aryayush

Aspiring Novelist
@Aayush,does your MacBook Pro not have a C2D?All C2Ds and later processors are 64 bit ones.Not sure about your MBP but Milind's iMac has C2D 2.0Ghz and can easily run 64 bit OS X.
Both my and Milind’s machine have the same processor—2.16GHz Intel Core Duo. In fact, our entire configuration is same except for his 20-inch screen compared to my 17-inch one.
 
I hope you realise that a major share of Apple’s recent success is due to the move to Intel. If there’s one thing that wasn’t a mistake, it was to leave PowerPC behind and get with the times.

I find it really amusing when people say stuff like this—deserting PowerPC was a mistake for Apple and iPods sell only because they can be hack to run Linux variations. No offense to PowerPC or Linux but those two are the dumbest statements ever and really show that you (as in the person who’s saying it) have no idea about anything even remotely related to Apple.

The moment someone says something like that, I immediately realise that he thinks Apple is just another company that does what other companies do. If there is one company in the industry that definitely does things differently and always prefers its own approach, no matter how ridiculed it may be, it’s Apple. They’re just different, for better or for worse, and if you don’t think so, you just do not know Apple. :)
Dude, you must be seriously out of your mind.

apple works this way
apple works that way
apple does not like number 5
if apple tells PPC is good then it is
apple moved from ppc to x86. It rocks
apple Safari is the best browser ever, they made it all by themselves
if you buy an iPod, don't ever customise it, rockbox sucks
customising is only for geeks. Apple is for cool guys
Apple decides what you need to do. Its good for you.

WTF ? Can't you think from a normal guy's mind ?

Don’t be offended by what I’m saying. Just trying to be frank. I hope you realise some day that you just don’t get Apple and stop pretending like you do. One example is when you said that they might price it at $25. In Apple’s entire product lineup, there isn’t a single product that’s priced at a number that ends in 5 (or 4.99).

I was refering to the maximum price that can be put on a service pack like this. Not the price apple asks people.

iPods sell only because they can be hack to run Linux variations.
WTF ? You are the guy who got things wrong here.

1. iPod can run only a single distro

2. WTF are linux "variants" ? Distros are Operating systems with a BSD/Linux/Solaris kernel at their heart. Thats all.

3. You think people don't require any flexibility ? You think FLAC support and MPC support is useless ? You think its pointless playing DOOM on iPod ? You think running GBA games on iPod is a waste of time ?

WTF again. Apple may think that way, but not a good buyer. A good buyer always considers all options.

No person in his right mind will buy a product seeing its brand name.

I hate having to comment like this, but its your attitude that makes me sick. You pretend that you know everything about what people want.

+1 risc is faster than cisc....but then cisc provides more flexibility to the programmers.
A little bit of difficulty in programming is I think worth the power difference.
Then again, there are other architectures than x86, like Itanium and SPARC.
Most of them are awssome at handling heavy loads.


PS: I mentioned PPC's power only because Aayush was going about how its "dead" and how nobody uses PPC.

Mine is Core Duo 32bit.
Wait a sec there: Apple is NOT 64 bit already ?:confused:
I thought they moved to 64 bit Intel x86 from IBM PowerPC.:eek:
 
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