Why Fedora or even gnome, or put it hard way, WHY LINUX??

[Aijaz Akhtar]

So now in place of again and again adding my error messages in long posts, I am posting a new thread.
Earlier I posted my Linux woes that nobody replied to. Here again I am posting a few generalised questions.
1. I am unable to understand why all members have been voting, advocating and demanding FC. What is so special about FC except the RedHat brand lineage???
All rave about it but I cannot find any thing special about it. I do run PCQ2005 in a system and I cannot do anything with that except to demonstrate the Indic interface. Even my dialup is not accessible as my modem is not recognised.
2. Everybody is SOOOOOO helpful in giving me so many tips in ALL THE LINUX forums (I have joined 6-7) but all provide console tips not the GUI way. When I ask a querry for a particular distro, say Ubuntu, why people provide console tips that work only in FC?? And Ubuntu says command not found. Or in Mandrake (now Mandriva I know, but so far no mag has given the Mandriva CD that has been released) where I could install many desktop environments. Only Xandros I found most user friendly, but then you cannot install ANY SOFTWARE unless you are connected to internet (read BROADBAND) and doownload all packages!! The same with Ubuntu.
3. I subscribe to the FOSS as a philosophy and promote it far and wide, and hence I am supposed to HELP OTHERS at my office installing the software like Grass they need. But I myself am unable to do so. OK, I can attempt console commands, but what about other users?? So now I have decided NOT TO USE CONSOLE EVEN MYSELF. When I do mention that the problem is in this distro, say Ubuntu that has only gnome, suggest that works on gnome in Ubuntu, why suggest console commands that do not work. And let me tell you that I have been fiddling with Linux since 1998, can manage partitioning with ease, can install any distro, but unable to put it to work.
4. For my personal needs, I need text input in Urdu and Hindi. That I have so far been unable to configure IN ANY DISTRO. In Ubuntu for example, I could configure locales, but in Hindi interface in Ubuntu, as well as in PCQLinux, OOo shows only rectangles in menu bars. AND I DID INSTALL ALL LOCALE PACKAGES.
5. The user friendly distros like Xandros and Linspire (that cannot be installed of course) lack advanced features or the difficulty in instaling s/w. The advanced distros that come in 3-4-5 CDs migfht have many features but in unfriendly interface, rather the features do not get installed in the GUI interface, so why do you need them when you cannot use them the easy way. And also these so called advanced distros are SOOOOO slow to boot except Ubuntu that has greatly disappinted me. For speed, I liked Yoper and VectorLinux, though both did not allow dual boot and I failed to configure Lilo/Grub, or could edit fstab to have access to my Win partituons.
Tell me if I am talking through my hat?

 

[vignesh]

Its about hardware and what you use linux for ?Each distro is different.

 

[e-freak]

The console is more powerful than the GUI and the GUI just does the same things on a hidden console and show u some eye candy.

If u want to have a more user friendly OS try Suse.

Just bcoz YOU fail to understand stuff dosnt mean u blame the whole system!

 

[QwertyManiac]

right e-freak, we have a very strong minded critic in these threads,
Maybe he has understood but refused to hate windows ?

 

[vandit]

can any one explain me the use of fredora core ? is it very useful? or do I need to get it compulsory? I a new linux user( don't know even installing other softwares in linux .... using suse)

 

[naveenchandran]

. ....Even my dialup is not accessible as my modem is not recognised. ....

Well which modem do u have Internal or external? Also which make do u have?

Everybody is SOOOOOO helpful in giving me so many tips in ALL THE LINUX forums (I have joined 6-7) but all provide console tips not the GUI way. When I ask a querry for a particular distro, say Ubuntu, why people provide console tips that work only in FC?? And Ubuntu says command not found.

There may be very few such commands... Can u tell me which command that worked in FC did not work under Ubuntu

OK, I can attempt console commands, but what about other users?? So now I have decided NOT TO USE CONSOLE EVEN MYSELF.

Instead why don't U teach others to make use of console..... I think u have not explored the powerful Linux console yet...

The advanced distros that come in 3-4-5 CDs migfht have many features but in unfriendly interface, rather the features do not get installed in the GUI interface, so why do you need them when you cannot use them the easy way.

Unfriendly Interface? Which distro has an unfriendly Interface? Gnome 2.10 really Rocks!

 

[e-freak]

FC4 has the best and most user friendly Gnome I have used.

 

[GNUrag]

Re: Why Fedora or even gnome, or put it hard way, WHY LINUX?

1. I am unable to understand why all members have been voting, advocating and demanding FC. What is so special about FC except the RedHat brand lineage???

I do believe FC is more of a hype than a distribution. But on the other hand, If you have a look at the bookstore near you, you'll find that 90% of the reference books are dedicated to RedHat series of distributions. Add the new craze of doing RHCE certification and you'll find more and more people who want to get certified opt for Fedora for learning.

No wonder there are better distributions available and a person who has spent some time using a particilar distribution will have many ways figured out that can help him achieve the same thing FC users can do.

Other reason is easy availability of Fedora CDs to new users. Ask any linux geek in your locality and he'll surely have Fedora series with him and he'll most probably offer to install it for you for free.

Talking about easy availability, you have surely seen how much the popularity of Ubuntu increased when they started providing Free CDs at the doorsteps.

2. Everybody is SOOOOOO helpful in giving me so many tips in ALL THE LINUX forums (I have joined 6-7) but all provide console tips not the GUI way.

That is because with the GUI tools, the helping person first needs to make sure that you have that GUI tool installed on your system. Plus there are different GUI tools for doing different jobs. It all makes a mess.

Rather than that, the helping person just tells you which configuration file to edit from the console. Console tips are generally shorter for the helping person to type and explain.

When I ask a query for a particular distro, say Ubuntu, why people provide console tips that work only in FC?? And Ubuntu says command not found.

See its not possible for every user to test and try each and every distribution. When a FC expert provides you a tip, he thinks that the trick would work the same way on Ubuntu also.

And that's the reason why i do not post in the threads which deal with distributions i have never used. That includes Fedora.

Or in Mandrake (now Mandriva I know, but so far no mag has given the Mandriva CD that has been released) where I could install many desktop environments. Only Xandros
...
...
...

You might remember i had advised you not to try too many distributions and stick to one. With time and help from others you'll slowly figure out how to do things and tweak around. I do not keep flipping distros and have been using Debian for quite a long. Earlier i also knew nothing but with time i can say i have decent level of expertise in using and administring Debian.

3. I subscribe to the FOSS as a philosophy and promote it far and wide, and hence I am supposed to HELP OTHERS at my office installing the software like Grass they need.

To be very frank, you are NOT supposed to help others at your office the way you are doing. You are supposed to hire a proper support engineer that AMC companies provide.

4. For my personal needs, I need text input in Urdu and Hindi. That I have so far been unable to configure IN ANY DISTRO. In Ubuntu for example, I could configure locales, but in Hindi interface in Ubuntu, as well as in PCQLinux, OOo shows only rectangles in menu bars. AND I DID INSTALL ALL LOCALE PACKAGES.

OpenOffice is not based on GTK+ toolkit. So it is unlikely that you'll get localized interface for OpenOffice. It might be possible but I need to check how that can be done.

Tell me if I am talking through my hat?

No you are not. I think you are serious to work with GNULinux software and help other to migrate. These issues and others issues in the other thread are common things the one might face. As i said you need an expert around. Once he tells you how to get things done, I'm sure you'll be able to carry it forward on your own.

best of luck.
your's truely

 

[sba]

Re: Why Fedora or even gnome, or put it hard way, WHY LINUX?

Another Linux n00b who is frustrated b'cos of his habit of hopping from one distro to another. This is not how it works my dear friend. You gotta stick with one distro at one time...

1. I am unable to understand why all members have been voting, advocating and demanding FC. What is so special about FC except the RedHat brand lineage???

cos they've probably not used any other distro? there are distros out there that are miles ahead of FC but since it has RedHat backing...it gets the most support.

2. Everybody is SOOOOOO helpful in giving me so many tips in ALL THE LINUX forums (I have joined 6-7) but all provide console tips not the GUI way.

the main reason behind it is that GUI is not consistent through out various distros. You might be using Gnome...i might be using Fluxbox...the other guy might be using KDE and the next one openbox and so on. The one thing that joins all the distros in one thread is console. There is no inconsitency on that front...not at all. I don't know which commands do not work in Ubuntu that work in Fedora (is it even possible???) but 99% of the commands will work on ALL distros.

OK, I can attempt console commands, but what about other users?? So now I have decided NOT TO USE CONSOLE EVEN MYSELF.

get rid of the attitude mate. people who help you don't like that kind of attitude...

When I do mention that the problem is in this distro, say Ubuntu that has only gnome, suggest that works on gnome in Ubuntu, why suggest console commands that do not work. And let me tell you that I have been fiddling with Linux since 1998, can manage partitioning with ease, can install any distro, but unable to put it to work.

why not search on Google? There is a famous saying in Linux community..."You cannot ask a question that has not been answered already" and "Answer is out there"...out there is Google. rather than banking on people to help you why don't you help yourself by doing a search?

4. For my personal needs, I need text input in Urdu and Hindi. That I have so far been unable to configure IN ANY DISTRO. In Ubuntu for example, I could configure locales, but in Hindi interface in Ubuntu, as well as in PCQLinux, OOo shows only rectangles in menu bars. AND I DID INSTALL ALL LOCALE PACKAGES.

You need Keyboard Layouts not localisations for text input.

Tell me if I am talking through my hat?

not at all.

 

[kartik_mistry]

OOo shows only rectangles in menu bars.

You need to configure Hindi Language as Screen. This can be done by Tools-->Option-->Language option. You can ask at #indlinux or #openoffice.org at irc.freenode.org for detail help.

 

[Aijaz Akhtar]

First, let me tell you that I have not removed Ubuntu so far, but still anxious to lay my hand on Kubuntu. KDE has many tools properly organised in the gui. But I am still sticking to Ubuntu though more, at present, for the hype and the increasing user support, and to add that I am typing this in Ooo in Ubuntu.
Before I offer my comments, though it would again lengthen this post, let me explain the scenario around me.
I am the Director in Geological Survey of India and posted at Nagpur on transfer from Hyderabad (I did not modify my profile as I have applied for a transfer back to Hyderabad where I am settled) in Engineering geology Division, In fact I had never been posted in the computing field, called as Geodata Division in GSI. But I AM regarded as an expert over here as well as at my previous posting Hyderabad. In GSI, it is only me and my friend Ravikumar who organised the FOSS workshop at Hyderabad in May (he too uses it ONLY for Grass and does not configure any other thing in his tux box) who are the flag bearers of FOSS. And the fear of Linux around here is so much that just today, when the system with the internet at geodata division crashed, and the people who had been attending to our LAN-WAN-INSD (all Windows Server people) advised to install Linux and even called me to install Ubuntu or Xandros, but then the director, Geodata developed cold feet and I was sent back. On my pushing FOSS here, he allowed to give three systems (now it is two) for Linux installation, but NONE has cared even to explore that so far from that very division. (IOn one thehre is Vector Linux, in anoter it is Xandros plus Ubuntu). And they ARE the people at the helm who are supposed to get or pay for the expert support. In this field, I have to put myself in those shoes. And all still say 'oh Linux, is it not that DOS like, and No sir, we are happy with Win'. In this scenario, I WANT IT GUI. Though in the FOSS workshop, where I presented my paper on 'The Myth of Linux being User Un-friendly', I did mention that command line is more potent even giving examples from DOS and Win like ping, or regedit or even msconfig ('Run' too is as good/bad as CLI). So all these I do know what many of my friends have said. Yes, I admit that my expertise had been in Windows (and all my knowledge goes to the credit of Chip/Digit, the new IC Chip, PCQ and IT, and forums such as this.)
I knew that I would be stiring the hornet's nest, and yes, perhaps I was too harsh. But I tried to reflect the general views of all new users who prefer to work through gui. I do not agree that unless you work in console, you can claim to be Linux user. I want to use Linux, you include me as a user or whatever.
I am typing this off line so I am not quoting every body of you there, but nevertheless trying to reply/comment on all the threads my thread got.
Debian users like Debian Slackware too has its fans, that is acceptable. And yes, Xandros too is a Debian, why this low treatment to it, it too has many s/w in Xandros Network when you are conected to the net, if that is the right way to install s/w.
I too have joined ubuntu forum and have sent some of the same threads there that I did here, and there I have been posting all the errors that I got. Just go to ubuntuforums.org, and search for user name Aijaz Akhtar (I am always transparent almost everywhere, no funny user IDs and avatars for me) and see my threads under desktop support and installation help sub-forum. So need not elaborate which command were suggested to me and which did not work. And for various other distros that I tried (and Gnurag always commented on that), some commands that never worked, as I remember now are: mount/sysimage (or whatever that was, I did not learn them by heart and not taking risk copied and pasted the commands suggested in various forums.) sbin/lilo, grub-install (and not that I will try to configure Lilo in Ubuntu that it should not work.)
I know PPP and PPPoE are different (I am not a total newbie anyway as all of you might have realised). But I could not find any tool for creating any internet connection. Just now I checked again, and yes, IT IS THERE under System->Administration->networking and NOT under internet where KDE places it. But it has not recognised my internal modem or eth0 (Smart Link and VIA 10/100 resp.). Through Mandrake I could connect to dial up as well as PPPoE (dataOne). But PCQLinux in one machine in my room is unable to configure the Conexant soft56k modem. (This I am retaining for shear l10n demo.) And about the RIM, I was given tips in ubuntu forums and I followed that and got the uhci blah blah....(the tip at *www.rimweb.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3656)
Coming to this, yes, I do know that for the text input you only need keyboard layouts, but where was it in Ubuntu? I think that I selected the languages at the time of installation. But there was no Keyboard panel (eqv. to language bar in Win). I learnt that it was under Syustem preferences but the Add buttonwas disabled, only through root log in I could add keyboards. And this too I learnt just now that it is through 'ADD PANEL' that we can get the keyboard selector. I tried Arabic QWERTY, but the keyboard it offers is not QWERTY (in terms of Apple Mac). Then I tried to install the Urdu phonetic keyboard from crulp.org and copied and pasted their commands in enabling it. But it does not come as an option even now, though right clicking the panel, the list shows 'Ur' all right. (But I cannot add any other keyboard layoutas a simple user). Regarding locales and interface of OOo, I did install the hi package of Ooo, and I assumed that Ooo-hi IS available as seen in Rangoli, Gnoware (or in Gujarati in Utkarsh, Bengali in Ankur, and even Bharatiya Ooo in Hindi and Tamil as released last month by the IT ministry. And yes, I still do not find any GUI o install fonts. Some times copying them in ukb/places and ukb/symbols does not work. I feel more at home with KDE (and IceWM is rather a favourite) where I could do so many things in GUI. So why Gnome ROCKS? If one needs a blank desktop interface, Flexbox, TWM, Blackbox may be used. Why Gnome? And yes, Google offers so many links that I get confused (and mind it, I do not have broadband and always connect internet (dial up) and seldom use it for more than half an hour in office and not every day at home through Reliance cell phone at home and thus give up due to storm of help. And then the tips I do get, I cannot put them to use directly. I could not configure RIM so far A major problem may be that this is not known that which application can be run through console giving what command (the case in point was wvdial in console that I did not get the GUI equivalent then. Say when I type 'setxkbmap -layoot XXXX', it creates a layout that used to be iin Keyboard mmenu n KDE (after enabling kayboard layouts). Now only I typed in console to see what is GDM, as no application window gave this title and when it said that GDM is already runnuing, I could guess it to be Gnome Desktop/Display manager!! (perhaps). Or that the File Browser in Ubuntu is the same as the old nautilus, I thought that Ubuntu has some other file manager this time, looking like Nautilus. I suggest that some of you give a list of the commands that are equivalent to GUI packages (frontends) to various KDE and Gnome applications in the Tips and Tricks/ Tutorials here. The sitemap of Gnome is a bit enigmatic to me so far.
But some how, my own preferences kept aside, I still did not get convinced as to what is so special about Gnome.
And no, I am no kid to get offended by comments like those of banned2wise. I appreciate all of your reactions, rather enjoyed them abd hopefully all of you did too 'enjoy' mine. I have sennse of humour i fair abundance.
And just to add a news that I am myself involved in urdu l10n. FSF's Indranil Das Gupta has created a mailing list named urdu-indic and even a domain (to be constructed by us including me) at urdu-indic.l2c2.org. You can search for the 'noises' I made in IndLinux and Linux-Pakistan mailing lists archives before this came into being. I might claim to be the most well known name in the field of Urdu computing. (Check e.g. groups.yahoo.com/urdu_computing and urduweb.org where I am one of the administrators. I have also kept a thread live on Urdu L10n there. But its forum is totally in Urdu. In fact all my time is spent in typing various such inputs in various forums.
Now go and have a cup of tea/coffee and arrange to send a bill to me!!!

 

[GNUrag]

Hello Aijaz, Good to know you are closely working with FSF India. Probably you might not have heard about me, I am the FSF sysadmin. I work under Dr. Nagarjuna.

I have read your posting but have very few things to say. Firstly regarding usage of many distribuitions at a time, I firmly believe one should stick to single distribution and collate as much information/howtos on that distribution as one can. I find Debian and debian tools easy to use and administer.

Apart from the issue of easyness, Debian is more in tune with the FSF's principles of insisting on including 100% Free Software in their packages collection. We run FSF India's servers strictly on Debian for the same reason.

I prefer GNOME because of this:
*img184.imageshack.us/img184/3733/gnome1kh.th.jpg
GNOME can be very easily customised to create excellent looking desktops. Though i tried my best in above case, but could not achieve what GNOME experts can do. Have a look at the screenshot gallery available at www.lynucs.org Especially go through the Debian + GNOME section.

Other than that, I just feel like using GNOME rather than KDE. No reasons.

by the way, I would like to meet you, if you have any remote plans to come to Mumbai, do let me know.

 

[Aijaz Akhtar]

Tanks Gnurag. Let me add again that my mobile banner says "Say No to Piracy". I have had two PCs at home (the first in 1996, a 486 costing Rs.50K with a *HUGE* 850 MB HDD) and two laptops, AND NONE HAD ANY PIRATED software. I saw to it that Win98 installed is a pakka OEM, and have never has MS Office except in my old laptop (preloaded), In 1996 itself, I bought MS Works 4.x (even now many Indians have never heard of this suite) and later switched to Star/Easy/602/Ability suites, even Lotus Smart Suite'97 when it was released a freeware (with PCQuest perhaps). My New laptop came with MS Works 10 but I uninstalled it and have 602 and OpenOffice. Despite that my favourite word processors at home are Atlantis Nova, a very fast no frill s/w (best for simple needs) and Abiword, only for my Hindi-Urdu, I prefer Ooo at home and MS Word at office. That is neither I use pirated, nor support use of them. And hence offer to install Linux at various colleagues' homes and offices as well as OpenOffice even for pirated Won XP. And since now Win98 OEM is no more, and the assembled PCs always come with pirated WinXP, it is my mission to promote Linux, and PROVE THAT IT IS EQUALLY USER FRIENDLY.

 

[kartik_mistry]

Good Work. Keep the GNU/Linux spirit up!

 

[Aijaz Akhtar]

Sorry I was disconnected for the last 3 days, when I did get connection on antique Win98 machine, Digit forum never loaded, the same even in my laptop the day before on XP-RIM!! So I will read the later posts later, but posting this in advance, in reply to some previous threads. Don't sayI ran away, I am neck deep in FOSS young men!
In Ubuntu, e.g., there is only Gnome. Then why even Ubuntu forums people suggest only commands. When Gnurag told me in one of my previous threads that he just did apt-get and installed grass, I did not know then that apt-get is the back end of Syneptic!! So surely, if we have to promote use of Linux, we should help newbies in the Gnome way not the commands. And as banned2wise put it, DO NOT FORCE any user to run back to Windows, instead tempt him to come to us.
All you Linux geeks, PLEASE PLEASE come down your citadels. Spread the true spirit of FOSS and come out to help community and just forget that if you are a Linux guru, unless the other person too is like you, then only you would accept him as a mate, if he is not, push him out. Is it the way to go? Whose Linux is it anyway????? Ubuntu is "for human beings" not zombies.
I may not be even a potent Linux user but call me a FOSS activist. In place of adding any more here, please check my latest blog at:
*www.nagpur-lug.com/node/7

 

[firewall]

I would ask rather .. " Why Not ? "

 

[theKonqueror]

Just bcoz YOU fail to understand stuff dosnt mean u blame the whole system!

yeah... even if u wish 2 blame, blame it proper way. Tell the app developers, what u need. The feature might be present in next release or patch.

 

[sba]

Aijaz Akhtar: I must say that you are really a genuine "user" who wants to "use" linux but cannot because of the unfriendliness of GNU/Linux. I totally understand your frustration. I even read your Blog and your thoughts are really interesting.

I am not a Gnome user and I have never really liked it either but in KDE you could have found solutions to most of your problems in KDE Control Center. The major frustration that you seem to be harbouring is your unability to install fonts and use a new Keyboard Layout which could have been done in just a few clicks.

Even in Gnome you could have just copy pasted your fonts in .fonts directory, logout, login and you would have been up and running with urdu working in OOo. It is easy for even an "user"...right?

I agree that GNU/Linux is not at the Windows level of user friendliness where everything is click and go but it is also not a monster that needs to be tamed. It just needs your time to understand it and get familiar with it.

On the point of Fedora and Gnome...just want to say that they are highly over rated.

 

[Aijaz Akhtar]

So now my Ubuntu crashed!! In trying to get my RIM internet connection, I made a typo and saved a file as WVDIAL.COF (and not .CONF), and now it does not boot in GUI. (Did some of you Command pros cursed me???. Ctrl-Alt F1 however works,. Though trying to rename the file threw many errors, I create another file WVDIAL.CONFand I SUCCEEDED in getting internet connected by issuing WVDIAL R (as suggested in Rimweb.com forum) though could not surf in CLI and had to disconnect. How can I revive my GUI now. Issuing 'startx' says, 'command now found'. Issuing gdm says, 'GDM already running'. What could have gone wrong??

 

[sba]

login as root.
then issue a command "pgrep gdm" (without quotes). you will get a number.
then issue another command "kill -9 number". the number out here is obviously the output you got from last command.
then issue the command gdm again.