Microsoft accused of stacking ISO committee

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Cyrus_the_virus

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Microsoft’s strong-arming of the ISO process regarding Open XML, the proprietary format of Microsoft Office, may be destroying its legitimacy. (Picture from the IS-Thought Group.)

In a memo sent following his last meeting as head of the working group on WG1, which is handling Microsoft’s application to make the Word format an ISO standard as ECMA 376, outgoing Governor Martin Bryan (above), an expert on SGML and XML, accused the company of stacking his group.

At issue is a sudden influx of so-called P members to the body, “whose only interest is the fast-tracking of ECMA 376,” Bryan wrote. The P members are not voting on anything else, preventing it from moving on any other work. Bryan suggested that unless the ISO tightens its membership rules to eliminate the abuse its work should be passed on to OASIS, and he closed with this:
The disparity of rules for PAS, Fast-Track and ISO committee generated standards is fast making ISO a laughing stock in IT circles. The days of open standards development are fast disappearing. Instead we are getting “standardization by corporation”, something I have been fighting against for the 20 years I have served on ISO committees. I am glad to be retiring before the situation becomes impossible.
Is making Microsoft’s Open XML format a standard so important that Microsoft is willing to destroy the ISO process to win it?

Source: ZDnet
 
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The Open Doccument Format, ODF, that is used in OpenOffice.org, is much more advanced and usable. Its contents can even be viewed with an archieve reader, so that in case of an emergency and having deleted an important pic from the HDD thats in the OOo file, you can easily extract it, unlike word.

M$ $tink$
 
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Cyrus_the_virus

Cyrus_the_virus

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I guess, this news is just confirmation to what I posted initially:

National Boards to vote NO for OOXML (Office Open Xml) at ISO

*fanaticattack.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/iso1.jpg

There will be a BRM (Ballot resolution meeting) in Geneva on 25-29 February 2008 to answer the comments by National Standard Boards on OOXML and to resolve issues.

Microsoft has set up a situation where many of the shortcomings and thousands of comments which need to be resolved at the BRN will not be addressed. They have closed this process as much as possible and have delayed National Boards from having adequate time to review proposed changes. They are setting themselves as heads of the National Boards in Portugal and Ireland. Many National Boards are still loaded and influenced by Microsoft Certified Partners and over a dozen counties have been lobbied by MS for the sole purpose of advancing Microsoft’s interests alone, as opposed to advancing the broader global community which ISO serves.

In the instances cited above, National Boards have become de facto agents of Microsoft’s interests. For example, the following would constitute a country that is acting effectively as a Microsoft agent rather than a member that acts in good faith:

* If a country that has never before participated in JTC1 activities joins JTC1 as a P-member just two days before the OOXML ballot concludes
* If that country then votes an unqualified YES without comments on a 6,000 page standard
* If that country is without an industry or public consult
* If that country then goes on to ignore every other ballot that comes before JTC1

When the above happens 20 times, then it is committee stuffing and the process is damaged.

Initially when Dis 29500 was put on fast track, many countries simply did not have the time or resources in place to adequately review the 6000 page document. It has not been tested, it will be an unfairly competing standard and has been rejected by many worldwide. OOXML as a standard will “kill the soul” of all those who have worked so hard to make ISO standards truly Open. The vitality and credibility of ISO itself would be compromised.

Martin Bryan, the out going Convener of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC34 WG1 stated, “The days of open standards development are fast disappearing. Instead we are getting ’standardization by corporation,’ something I have been fighting against for the 20 years I have served on ISO committees.”

NB’s remember that comments from other NB’s which are resolved can have a significant effect on the Format and bring up other issues which may concern you. Check to make sure you know what these resolution are.

Please do not abstain — it is critical that you exercise your right and “Disapprove” DIS 29500 by voting NO. If you vote NO you are voting “yes” for true openness, choice and interoperability.

There is already an ISO-approved standard, OpenDocument Format (ISO/IEC 26300), covering the same use as DIS 29500. Having multiple competing products is a good thing; having competing standards adds cost to industry, government and citizens and increases confusion for users and the marketplace. This standard proposal was not created by bringing together the experience and expertise of all interested parties (such as the producers, sellers, buyers, users and regulators), but by Microsoft and a consortium of institutions that have a relatively narrow, common interest in advancing the specifications of one vendor’s products (Microsoft) as a standard.”

DIS 29500: DIS 29500 (OOXML) is too closely tied to proprietary products to allow full and complete implementation without raising at least the appearance of a risk of exposure for claims of liability for patent damages or, in the alternative, claims for patent licensing fees.

OOXML contains specific application configuration settings, most notably: autoSpaceLikeWord95, footnoteLayoutLikeWW8, lineWrapLikeWord6, mwSmallCaps, shapeLayoutLikeWW8, suppressTopSpacingWP, truncateFontHeightsLikeWP6, uiCompat97To2003, useWord2002TableStyleRules, useWord97LineBreakRules, wpJustification and wpSpaceWidth.

“autoSpaceLikeWord95″

“To faithfully replicate this behavior, applications must imitate the behavior of that application, which involves many possible behaviors and cannot be faithfully placed into narrative for this Office Open XML Standard. If applications wish to match this behavior, they must utilize and duplicate the output of those applications.”

OOXML defines its own vector graphics XML-DrawingML. But the recognized standard for this, also recommended by W3C, is SVG. OOXML also includes Microsoft’s VML specification in contradiction to both SVG and DrawingML. VML was turned down as a W3C standard in 1999 in favor of SVG.

OOXML references Windows Metafiles and Enhanced Metafiles, both closed proprietary Microsoft formats. For OOXML to become a standard it is unacceptable to have OS Dependant binary formats.
OOXML is Patent incumbent, here is one: EP1376387 (A2) Word-processing document stored in a single XML file that may be manipulated by applications that understand XML.

National Boards must understand that OOXML is a different format. They must realize that using it implies getting new software and converting files to the new format. They must understand that basically only Microsoft is in a position to reliably perform this conversion because they are the only ones to really know what’s in their binary format, which they did not open

* DIS 29500 standard is inconsistent within itself with regards to percentages, as well as with recognized methods, of the representations of percentage values, which can be expressed as a decimal integer (Magnification Settings—2.15.1.95), as a code made up of an integer being the real percentage multiplied by 500 (Table Width Units—2.18.97) and a real percentage multiplied by 1000 (Generic Percentage Unit—5.1.12.41

* DIS 29500 is too long (6000+ pages) and even at that length is not fully published; it contains both undocumented and under-specified elements that prevent full implementation.

* DIS 29500’s complexity, extraordinary length, technical omissions and single-vendor dependencies combine to make alternative implementation legally and practically impossible. While DIS 29500/OOXML works extremely well with Microsoft products, its length, incomplete documentation and IPR restrictions violate the core principle of an international standard – being implementable by multiple vendors. If you want harmonization, interoperability and competition, “Disapprove” DIS 29500/OOXML.

* DIS 29500 conflicts with existing ISO standards, such as ISO 8601 (Representation of dates and times), ISO 639 (Codes for the Representation of Names and Languages) or ISO/IEC 10118-3 (cryptographic hash)

* DIS 29500 has a bug in the spreadsheet file format which forbids any date before the year 1900: such bugs affect the OOXML specification as well as software applications like Microsoft Excel 2000, XP, 2003 and 2007.

* DIS 29500 is the evolution of a proprietary product .doc to .docx and was formatted only for that purpose. Microsoft has tried to “Open” is up only because of Commercial interests. Hence, there can never be interoperability with it. Converters/translators do not work other than converting very simple text. Approving DIS 29500 will be the beginning of a true interoperability nightmare between office suites.

* DIS 29500 does not have any specifications to ensure interoperability From the overall document contents, it is acutely clear that no effort has been made in OOXML to start from the existing ISO standard for the representation of documents in XML, that is ODF 1.0, ISO/IEC 26300:2006. We can see no reason for that deliberate departure and contend that unneeded differences are harmful. We therefore request that the OOXML proposal be rewritten starting from the existing standard.

VOTE NO for Dis 29500 because none of the questions on policy and “contradiction” will be discussed at the BRM

VOTE NO for Dis 29500 lacks supports for other platforms and browsers. It restricts the use of Linux platform and browsers such as FireFox, Opera and Safari

VOTE NO for Dis 29500 for the reason that the time given by the fast-track processing is not enough for consideration of this important draft and many countries did not have time to adequately study. It is a very complex technology which needs further more time to establish testing environment for thoroughly and deeply evaluation. The fast-track procedure is not suitable for this DIS29500

VOTE NO for Dis 29500 because of the overwhelming scope of the overlap between the proposed standard and the existing ISO/IEC 26300 standard. Further proposal for OOXML will increase the overlap even more significantly

VOTE NO for DIS 29500 as it creates a un-level playing field, it reinforces “anti-competition”, suppresses the ability of the Third world to communicate and be innovative. Office 2007 can save files in: web page, rich text format, plain text, text with layout, several types of Word and Wordperfect file types and others. In order to create a even playing field, fair competition and a Universal File Format for ALL, we see no reason why Office 2007 cannot implement ISO/IEC 26300 (ODF) as a native format with the option as default

VOTE NO for DIS 29500 as IPR issues in this process have not been resolved. NBs seeking reassurance in such matters must pursue them through other avenues than the BRM which is vague.

VOTE NO for DIS 29500 as there are accessibility issues according to University of Toronto, such as form fields not being associated with their labels, absence of a tabbing order for forms, and limitations in the use of alternative text descriptions of objects

VOTE NO for DIS 29500 because locale conventions (such as decimal points, date formats, and character settings) are inconsistent. SpreadsheetML documents are internally represented in the US English locale, but font types such as “bold” can be specified in any language (e.g. “gras” in French), even though the specification does not provide a list of equivalents in different languages

VOTE NO for DIS 29500 does not meet any ISO policies and goals. It does not meet the basis for an open standard. It was not created with open collaboration, the attempt to standardization was in a closed environment, it has not been widely tested, developed, adopted and is rejected by many worldwide.

IMPORTANT: And above all DO NOT RELY ON PROMISES, DIS 29500 (OFFICE 2007) will need to go threw a major change to resolve all the comments. It is doubtful this can be done or for that matter if MS would even do it. So this is critical: in no situation should it be an allowable resolution for Microsoft or ECMA to say “we’ll fix that in a future version of the specification.” Either it gets resolved at the BRM or it doesn’t. Future promises mean nothing and are no guarantee of change. If it is not resolved and you care about it, it constitutes failure if only a promise of correction is offered. Vote NO and there will be no regrets.

Once a proprietary standard is approved by the ISO, and made a standard, its eventual replacement by a truly open standard like ODF becomes impossible. Once a proprietary format becomes a standard, the era of truly open standards is over, and the way becomes clear to making anything proprietary.

Let us not step back into the past, make the future OPEN TO ALL!

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ico

Super Moderator
Staff member
Microsoft XML Office formats doesn't deserve to be ISO as Microsoft Office is not free.
 
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Cyrus_the_virus

Cyrus_the_virus

Unmountable Boot Volume
More assesments of the situation:


The Deprecated “Smoke Screen” of MS Office Open XML (OOXML)


BSI British Standards states: “… a standard is an agreed, repeatable way of doing something. It is a published document that contains a technical specification or other precise criteria designed to be used consistently as a rule, guideline, or definition. Standards help to make life simpler and to increase the reliability and the effectiveness of many goods and services we use. They are intended to be aspirational - a summary of good and best practice rather than general practice. Standards are created by bringing together the experience and expertise of all interested parties such as the producers, sellers, buyers, users and regulators of a particular material, product, process or service.”

In an effort to win quick converts to its bid to have Microsoft Office Open XML (MOOXML) accepted as an ISO standard, Microsoft is deprecating parts of its widely-criticized MOOXML. But whatever the new Microsoft OOXML file format with deprecated parts will eventually look like (if such a format ever appears in an actual application), these cosmetic changes don’t really make a difference for Microsoft or the world. Neither Microsoft Office 2007 or the version after that will ever likely produce a standards-compliant format. Besides, OpenDocument has been around now for a few years and is becoming widely supported in industry. However, there has been no meaningful movement from MS towards support. Actions speak louder than words.

What is described in the ECMA OOXML specification is not what is currently implemented in MS Office 2007. The actual specification: says ECMA OOXML is a format that Microsoft Office 2007 can *read*. Note, however, that it is not the format that Microsoft Office 2007 is actually *writing* for example: The Scripts, macros, passwords, Sharepoint tagshooks, DRM and other tie-ins used by MS Office 2007 are not part of the ECMA OOXML specification. If you try encrypting a document in Office 2007, it is no longer even a zip file + XML at that point. There is no editor reference application for Office Open XML, so an application can send Office Open files to Microsoft Office, and Microsoft Office can open those files, but any edits are saved in a different format!

Launch Microsoft Office and try to save a file in the format specified by the draft standard at ISO. You can’t. There is no compatibility mode in Microsoft Office that limits input to the feature set specified in the official Microsoft Office Open XML draft ISO standard. Any suggestions of interoperability for anyone wanting to support the Microsoft Office Open XML specification is ridiculous, especially since Microsoft itself won’t allow its customers to write to that format.

Microsoft will NOT change its Office program to become compliant with ECMA . The marketing firms on retainer will simply advertise loud and clear that “Microsoft OOXML is now an ISO standard”, and will blur the differences it sees between MS OOXML, ECMA OOXML and ISO OOXML. This will do the trick for most people, who are not technical experts. But they will eventually get caught again in the confusion. Microsoft is not concerned about what the global community needs, but is acting strictly to protect its monopoly.

Deprecating some controversial issues shows some of the signs of the significant failures of the format. Shuffling chapters around and putting some parts in the annex is not the answer to technical shortcomings. Such aggressive proposals at this time, seem more geared to be for “Talking Points” only rather than the sincere interest in creating a truly open standard.

There are still major problems with the format as now proposed in its deprecated form, from cultural and linguistics adaptability problems, accessibility issues, to the reliance on the MS Windows product, the guidance to what is called the “DEVMODE” structure, increased Patent problems, added harmonization and interoperability problems, such that third party implementation remains almost impossible. And there are many, many other problems with MOOXML as an ISO standard. And let us not forget the proposed format has never been implemented or tested. Indeed, one wonders if MOOXML can be tested or implemented by any vendor other than Microsoft. MOOXML is still far from achieving acceptance as a true standard.

The fact is that even MS Office 2007 itself has not implemented the initially proposed ECMA format. So it is more than apparent that the new “smoke screen” proposals will never be implemented or even if they can be, not even by Microsoft, let alone third party vendors. It also dooms all the .docx files out there already. Is MS ready to carry out a product recall or ready to develop another converter for this problem? Not likely.

Moving stuff into deprecated status does not ease the burden of implementing DIS 29500. The TRUTH IS that every application will need to support the deprecated features in order to read files with the deprecated features.

The legacy binary formats remain closed. If a file is one which was converted from an older format of Microsoft Office by DIS29500 and allowed to wrap the old file in xml, it remains unreadable for everyone else. OOXML is still a closed spec tied into to many proprietary formats.

ECMA 376 is a bomb disguised as a standard. It redefines functions and components just to retain ties to the undocumented legacy formats.

Therefore a number of things that should be fixed by now, thanks to better engineering, and existing ISO standards, are left not only unfixed, but even perpetuated by ECMA376. Why? There is a difference between preserving old files and moving them to a new format with all the same internal bugs. In essence, Microsoft is shoving their own mistakes right down the throat of ECMA/ISO. Microsoft has the audacity to appear to be saying that the standard meets a different need, when all it seems to mean is : “we don’t wanna fix our bugs, because that would force us to use standards, and that is unacceptable to us.” Unfortunately, the new proposals illuminate this unchanged and obstreperous position.

Further more the proposed deprecated changes increases the already dramatic overlap with the established ISO standard for Office Documents. If creates new patent problems in such that now MS reserve the right to sue you if you implement any of the deprecated stuff moved to the annex of the proposed standard. It makes harmonization and interoperability worse than ever because without the code for interpreting the deprecated items, any file with deprecated data will be impossible to read properly. It is obvious, but despite the obviousness, the problem persists.

To the extent that Office 2007 will have to be changed, to the extensive coding work which would need to be done, don’t you think it is just wiser to reject OOXML as a ISO standard because it is not one, and for Microsoft to collaborate on the development of ODF and create one universal file format for everyone.
The Culture of Self Interest is not Open
*fanaticattack.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/billgates.jpg​
ABOVE: Comes vs. Microsoft Plaintiff’s Exhibit. See larger version in PDF file.
So let us be clear, an ISO standard should benefit everyone and should be developed by consensus for fair competition and through open participation for all to embrace, enhance and share. DIS29500 as now proposed still only serves the commercial interest of one vendor and will always only serve the interest of one vendor - Microsoft. This is the way the OOXML format was designed. It was designed to ferment their monopoly into the sun. Microsoft will make promises to the National Boards that it will fix the OOXML format “later”, but as this standardization process has shown so far, Microsoft doesn’t keep promises.

Unless wasting time is part of the current marketing tactics used by Microsoft, the most advantageous action would be for that company to accept the standing invitation to collaborate on the development of the established standard, the OpenDocument Format, and to create one universal file format for everyone – the fundamental purpose of standardization.

By Russell
 

praka123

left this forum longback
Ohhhhh!this corporation always wanted to loot and stick its users to M$ domain.we cannot expect anything good. Nothing good comes from Nazareth. :x

A good example is students in their young ages are moved to windows platform without their "knowledge".the Visual Studio.net thing all will make him think small and confined to M$ domain hence supporting the monopoly!.

Still we see Open Source and Open Standards face competition from devil to implement.devil wants to enforce monopoly on everything!when will India lead by choosing OSS and Open Standards as,in USA all laws are made for Monopolist corporations like micro$oft et al and citizen laws in favour of feminists!.USA cannot lead world in terms of ethics.
 

gxsaurav

You gave been GXified
Microsoft’s strong-arming of the ISO process regarding Open XML, the proprietary format of Microsoft Office, may be destroying its legitimacy.

Once the Open XML format becomes an ISO standard it will be compleately open by anyone to use....with no licensing restriction what so ever, what's the problem in that? is ODF scared of some competition?

The Open Doccument Format, ODF, that is used in OpenOffice.org, is much more advanced and usable. Its contents can even be viewed with an archieve reader, so that in case of an emergency and having deleted an important pic from the HDD thats in the OOo file, you can easily extract it, unlike word.

*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif Ignorence is bliss....stop making things up when u don't know how MS products & technologies work. Do you mean something like this....

*img165.imageshack.us/img165/2407/snag0000lz4.jpg

See, u can even see the images individually in the Media folder

*img80.imageshack.us/img80/2687/snag0002wu3.jpg
MS Open XML has been doing since long back, since beta 1 of office 2007 days

A good example is students in their young ages are moved to windows platform without their "knowledge".the Visual Studio.net thing all will make him think small and confined to M$ domain hence supporting the monopoly!.

Visual Studio is just a developement IDE which can be used to make apps even for Mac OS
 
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praka123

left this forum longback
i meant .net and esp the IDE as it is what makes ppl addicted and sticked to M$ technologies
 
ever SEEN an opendoccument file? Its easy to use, as the images within are easily extractable via an archieve manager. it has an excellent file format, with everything within organised neatly to the point of manual editability.

And yes, there is no problem in M$ Office file formats becoming ISO standards, as long as they are open, and usable by all and can be supported by any software without licence issues. If its compatible with GPL v3, I am in for it.
 

gxsaurav

You gave been GXified
ever SEEN an opendoccument file? Its easy to use, as the images within are easily extractable via an archieve manager. it has an excellent file format, with everything within organised neatly to the point of manual editability.

Then what the hell have I opened that docx file in, isn't WinRAR an archive manager
And yes, there is no problem in M$ Office file formats becoming ISO standards, as long as they are open, and usable by all and can be supported by any software without licence issues.

If its compatible with GPL v3, I am in for it.

why does it has to be GPL compliant to be Open Standard? wasen't there open standards before GPL3?
 
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Cyrus_the_virus

Cyrus_the_virus

Unmountable Boot Volume
Once the Open XML format becomes an ISO standard it will be compleately open by anyone to use....with no licensing restriction what so ever, what's the problem in that? is ODF scared of some competition?

lol.. @gx, you just don't get it do you? This is the exact kind of manipulation that MS is trying to achieve by saying things like is ODF scared of competition an once the ISO is given, they'll do this and that.. etc.. etc..

Go get a life @gx, ISO is not about competition, it's about open format which e every one can use openly and not be contolled by a company, there is not competition in ISO you sick MS guys. Charities don't compete with each other because they are for the good on common people! You don't try to make a bloody profit from charity which MS is trying to do with OOXML which is to control the format rather than being open!

If ignorant people don't still get the point, please don't take the conversation in a different direction! The bottom line is, OOXML is not OPEN!! Get that in your head!:mad:

Then what the hell have I opened that docx file in, isn't WinRAR an archive manager

Are you living even remotely close this world?
 
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