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Hindus in Bangladesh rattled by a string of attacks

dude1

Journeyman
Mea Culpa!

Yes you are mediator!
Also agree with most of what you are saying. People tend to stop discussion at a mere mention of quran. We should be proud to follow our own religion(not afraid to discuss it) at the same time respect other people following theirs. Religion is made for us. For our convenience. If u think over it it just is a lifestyle u choose to follow. And killing someone over their lifestyle is bad:).
 
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Skyh3ck

Cyborg Agent
If Muslim wants to survive in the modern world they need people like Tarek Fatah, Najam Sethi, Hassan Nissar, who speaks truth and modernising Islam...











watch this and every muslim must learn how to liver with others
 

ico

Super Moderator
Staff member
Its funny how the mod of this forum had no other task then to sit, troll and delete the factual outpurings. Message was conveyed though.
Since idiocy at both ends is the truth of the Kali Yuga. - "yeah, its funny how modern science can fail at times. Instead I should have chanted a mantra and vBulletin upgrade would have went fine. Old database wouldn't need to be reverted that way. Message was conveyed though."
 
OP
mediator

mediator

Technomancer
@Dude - IMO, the world should not get attached to any of it, but simply question all the available knowledge. Thats how the Indian knowledge got diversified from veda to Upanishads to Gita, Puranas, 8 schools of thought - Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, dvaita, advaita etc, Budddhist school of thought, mahavira's philosophy - all explaining and arriving at the ultimate truth of the undivided reality, undivided consciousness, shunyata or the infinite potential etc in their own way, seemingly contradicting at a lower level of understanding or intellect, but converging to the same vision of reality with their own paths.

Similarly, Abarahamic followers should have a spirit of questioning and start questioning the forbidden as their topmost priority, breaking chains of DOs and DONTs and transcending beyond the permission that they seek to do various things in life. It goes and grows beyond respect, to developing a primary understanding of the nature of things rather than as a borrowed knowledge being followed as a law.



PS - @MODS ... Y U troll in my threads?

 

lm2k

Journeyman
surah tauba in quran is the favourate target of almost every person

infected with Islamophobia.
In order to understand it clearly we need to know that there

existed a peace treaty between the rulers of mecca(at that time)

and muslims. And the unbelivers of mecca broke that. It often taken

out of context and quoted whenever and wherever as raw rules and

then draw lines that islam preaches terrorism. First thing is we

just cannot copy any incomplete line from it and then draw

conclusion, but proper context must be considered. Surah tauba is

like Bhagwat Gita . In Bhagwad Gita , arjun is not willing to kill

his brothers just for the sake of chair, so there shree krishna

instigates him to pick up the weapons and slaughter the kavravas,

his brothers. To similar extent God commands the muslims to fight

the opperessors (the pagans of mecca) since the pagans have broken

the peace. they are given a time of 4 months either to compensate

for the loss of the offence they had caused by aggreeing to the

terms of muslims or fight similar to the great war of mahabharat.

"If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so

that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he

can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."[Al-

Qur’an 9:6]



5:32 Because of that, We ordained for the Children
of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in
retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in
the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind,
and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved
the life of all mankind.

If we read the complete surah , we find that the muslims are

strictly commanded to spare the women,childern and those who are

not armed against them. Merely quoting the incomplete verses about

rules of war without is nonsense.

Also we see Baqarah, 2:191
“And fight in the cause of God those who have (initially) waged war

against you, but do not transgress limits (by causing more damage

to your enemy than the damage they initially caused you, thereby

expanding the circle of war). Indeed, Allah loves not transgressors

[190]. And slay them wherever you overtake them and expel them from

where they have expelled you (a reference to Quraysh who for 14

years had been expelling the Muslims from Mecca), for tumult and

oppression (that Quraysh heavily incurred on you) are worse than

killing; but fight them not at the Inviolable House of Worship,

unless they (first) fight you there. If they were to fight you,

then do not be reluctant to kill them. Such is the recompense of

the disbelievers (in the sanctity of the Holy Shrine of Ka’ba).

[191]”

many see these two verses as ground for Islam’s quest for peace.

Such that even when Muslims were commanded to fight in self

defense, they were instructed to practice war-morality: Do not

start a fight. But fight in the cause of God those who initially

fight you but do not transgress limits thereby expanding the circle

of war. The word “limit” is interpreted by the majority of scholars

as “limiting enemy’s loss only to their own.” Any more loss beyond

that is considered transgression.

Thus, the verse teaches Muslims not to start hostility and to use

hostility-stopping techniques if war ever started. Causing more

damage to the enemy is an invitation to more violence. Furthermore,

the Qur’an commands Muslims that if the opponents are inclined

towards truce, they are to seek an end to hostilities. Allah said:

“But if the enemy inclined to peace, then incline to it.” Qur’an

8:61.

8:39 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah,
and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone.
But if they cease, then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of
what they do.

Fitnah mentioned here means, until no Muslim is persecuted so that

he abandons his religion. So i think it is not a crime to fight

against the operessors.

3:83 Do they seek other than the religion of Allah,
while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens
and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him
shall they all be returned.

God rebukes those who prefer a religion other
than the religion that He sent His Books and
Messengers with, which is the worship of Allah
Alone without partners, to Whom,(submitted all creatures in the
heavens and the earth), Willingly, or not.

can anybody tell me religion where it encouraged to abandon

swadharma?

Regarding religious tax that is ziziya, for a muslim in muslim

state there was compulsory conscription, while for nonmuslims

instead of compulsory conscription they need to pay tax. But for

muslims Zakat (tax) was and is still compulsary inspite of military

service to defend the state against foreign invaders. In some cases

the nonmuslims formed armies and helped the state defence so ziziya

was not taken from them and neither zakat.The amount of the ziziya

was based upon the income and wealth and only applicable to healthy

males capable of working. So whats wrong in it??




@kaz : we are trying to spread islamophobia here in the forum so

that bjp gets more votes for killing the minorities. But now look

what have you done!!!!!!!!

I want to ask some questions about Rama, why did he burn his wife

alive, why he used unfair means(used the brother of ravan to reveal

the secret) to defeat Ravan, why did he kill Shambuka, how did Rama

die??
 

Skyh3ck

Cyborg Agent
listen this, why a there is no connection between Religion and a State

from great Scholar Hassan Nisar

 
OP
mediator

mediator

Technomancer
@lm2k - Its easy to see where you quoted all this from and hence too predictable. Anyways,

Firstly, you need to understand that Islam is merely 1400 yrs old. You may refer Zoroastrian texts of Ahura-Mazda which predates Islam. Here's a few text from the same and if you understand sanskrit, you might even understand what it says.

PersianDNA™* [KHORDEH AVESTA] Niyayesh: Atash (Litany to Fire)

Secondly, a peace treaty between the rulers of mecca and muslims leads the following points to ponder.
a) Rulers of Mecca -> A geographic connotation and not a religion
b) Pagans - The ones who question everything
b) Muslim/Islam -> A religion, where Allah cannot be questioned!

The verses that you yourself have quoted talk about spreading Islam { 8.39, 9.29, 9.5, 9.11, 9.56-57,2.193,3.83, Shahi Muslim - 1.33,19.4294 etc }.

So lets say, Muslims are trying to Islamize the whole world and I as an unbeliever protest that and do not believe in Allah, or the last day or pay acknowledgement of superiority, will you necessarily chop my limbs?

Obviously, if you fight me for not believing in Allah, then I'll have to fight you out of self-defense and my freedom of thought. Will this be seen as waging a war against Allah?

“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger [i.e., Muhammad], and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter. ( Quran 5.33)”




Fight those who believe not in Allåh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which Allåh and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of s subjection (9.29)


For your clarification, Surah tauba is not even thousand miles near to Bhagvad-Geet, for it might suprise you that Hinduism is not even a religion and Bhagvad-Geet not a manual to tell if jews, christias are bad or someone tagged as hindu is good or Krishna is the best, meat of swine is forbidden or "food invoked the name of other name of God" (Quran 5.3). It goes beyond name, forms, shapes to knowing oneself through detachment which in very short is called as aatm-gyaan. Before even talking about Geeta, you need to apt yourself with the understanding of dharma (which is not religion). Injustice in the form of Draupadi vastra haran, poisoning of Bheem, Varnavrat and many more incidents lead to an unstable situation where Pandavas only wanted to live happily away from all this. They were repeatedly chased away by Kauravas and hence lead to a compromise where Pandavas were satisfied even if Kauravas gave them 5 villages. But Duryodhan didn't even want to give them an inch of land and wanted to destroy them out of pure jealously, insecurity and longing for the throne.

So no my friend, Arjun never fought for the throne, but for justice which included that which was deceitfully taken away from him/Pandavas. Also, Krishna never instigated him to kill Kauravas, but to fight, as kshatriya's dharma is to fight which may or may not include killing.

Coming back, here dharma includes righteousness, duty and not to spread a doctrine or religion or word of Krishna as in the case of word of Allah. In Mahabharat, Krishna tried to stop war before i.e karma based on dharma which idealizes to non-violence. But when all the doors were closed, he did his duty which was opposite to the earlier i.e karm based on dharma of a kshatriya. This is way different than the peace treaty between the rulers of Mecca and Muslims who chopped of limbs and fight just because a peace treaty has been broken. Again, here we are not talking of two nations breaking a peace treaty but rulers of mecca (geography) and Islam/muslims (religion). Further, your argument itself stresses on the fact that Islam does not respect the boundaries, but divides the world between believers/muslims and unbelievers/non-muslims, unleashes war just because a treaty is broken between a geography and religion.

Next, there is no such thing like brotherhood or 'quam' amongst the pagans or as per the ancient Indian culture which sees the world as one family. Your argument that pagans of mecca broke the peace treaty and muslims were compelled to fight again connotes division of "us Vs them". FYI, one of the pandavas i.e Karna fought on the side of Kauravas and hence again this totally annhilates your argument of comparison to Mahabharat. Moreover, neither Kaurava nor Pandava refers to a religion or geography, but lineage, part of one family. Also, there is no concept of believer or non-believer, hindu or non-hindu as per Indian science and philosophy. Before you trains your guns, nastik is the one who has not yet questioned the Veda let alone understanding them. Astik, the one who has questioned, realized, verified and validated Veda to be a shruti or conforms to a shruti i,e the science of supreme consciousness, with his pinnacle of aatm-gyaan in the picture.

Unknowingly, you have put this verse

"If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he
can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."[Al-Qur’an 9:6]

This again strengthens my point that Islam sees the word of Allah as the ultimate and belittles others who do not agree with it and calls them "men without knowledge". In contrast to this, since you mentioned Bhagvad-Geet, Krishna nowhere tells to worship someone called Krishna from a level of understanding of Islam, nor imposes it on Arjun to follow it where in the end of chapter 18 he simple says that this is his "opinion" and do as you wish to do!



But the science of uniting the individual consciousness with the Ultimate Consciousness practiced by one with uncontrolled mind is difficult to obtain; thus it is My opinion that in this endeavor controlling the mind is the practical and appropriate means of achievement. (BG 6.36)

Thus the most confidential wisdom of all that is confidential has been described by me to you; deliberating fully on this; accordingly act as you wish. (BG 18.63)



If you understand riddles, poetry, metaphors etc then you will also understand the meaning of "I/Me" in Gita which is why it is called as "Bhagavad-Geet" (The Divine Song). This same riddle exists in devi Purana, "that" in some Upanishads and "brahman" in other. The meaning is the same!



lm2k said:
5:32 Because of that, We ordained for the Children
of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in
retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in
the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind,
and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved
the life of all mankind.

If we read the complete surah , we find that the muslims are

strictly commanded to spare the women,childern and those who are

not armed against them. Merely quoting the incomplete verses about

rules of war without is nonsense.
Here, what you have not stated specifically, is why Allah ordained Children of Israel not to kill anyone. Read from the earlier chapters, this again starts with the Islamization process where if anybody protests for not agreeing with Allah, should be killed. Verse 5.32 simply tells where Allah ordains the natural actions of a human being in case of an attack. Who is a "person" here? And obviously, nations can fight which may include killing if their security is at threat i.e Islamization in this case. The peace treaty between pagans of mecca and muslims itself is a contradiction to be looked at, because Islam at its core calls for spreading of Allah's word or Islamization. How can there be peace if we stare at all the verses of Quran which talk of Islamization? Who is oppressor, the one who disagrees or the one who forcefully imposes the word of Allah?

Verse 2.191 revolves around what I've said.


lm2k said:
8:39 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah,
and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone.
But if they cease, then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of
what they do.

Fitnah mentioned here means, until no Muslim is persecuted so that

he abandons his religion. So i think it is not a crime to fight

against the operessors.
Here you yourself have upholded my point. The above basically speaks to fight until there is no more muslim persecution or stress and "the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone."




lm2k said:
3:83 Do they seek other than the religion of Allah,
while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens
and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him
shall they all be returned.

God rebukes those who prefer a religion other
than the religion that He sent His Books and
Messengers with, which is the worship of Allah
Alone without partners, to Whom,(submitted all creatures in the
heavens and the earth), Willingly, or not.


can anybody tell me religion where it encouraged to abandon

swadharma?

Again, dharma is NOT religion. For a kshatriya, his dharma is different than that of a brahmin. But for your literal answer, here we go--

Relinquishing all ideas of righteousness, surrender unto Me exclusively; I will deliver you from all sinful reactions, do not despair. (BG 18.66)

The above talks of "sarva-dharmān parityajya" i.e abandoning all varieties of dharma and to seek the highest, the undivided reality, the shunyata, or the infinite potential or the "sat" (18.20) from which all the "lower dharma" themselves purify. For e.g Karna was a very dharmic guy, but from a high-level of reality, he sided with adharma and hence flew in the wave of adharma. Same goes for Bhishma, Drona, Kripa etc who were the greatest of the kashitriyas and sages. If they abandon, their attachment, and seek the highest truth, they could have sided with truth. But one was bound by an oath, while one was indebted with friendship.

This is similar in the case your brother is found guilty of a crime and you start defending him instead looking objectively. You may be a dharmic guy, but a small attachment can leave you flowing in the wave of adharma.


Regarding, smritis
Sita’s Agnipariksha in Ramayan


For other question of yours you need to understand the concept of avatar. Ram was just a normal human, who took the help of vanar-sena, Agastya-Rishi for getting divine weapons, Hanuman for fetching Sanjeevini and Vibhishan who aided him in his war against Ravan.

The Indian philosophy is vast. You need to decondition, yourself from that abrahamic template you've been carrying where you take geography and religion on equal sense of context and then use "lineage, philosophy and science of consciousness" to hold disconnected analogies.

You yourself have confirmed more than half of what I have stated. Its no use to discuss more, for further inflow of Quranic verses is only going to strenghten my case. :oops:
 

snap

Lurker
People view/interpret/believe/want what they want it to be.

is this relevant?


^this

A person said:
My best guess as to what will probably be said next:
No, you do not understand the meta-relativistic cognitive understanding of psuedo-quantum parallel entanglements that manifest as the inherent phenomena of neuronal processing vis-a-vis the hyper-consciousness of sentience. Scientists have shown that the underlying matrices of unilateral sixth-dimensional omni-strings are vibrating in sympathetic connections with the oscillating wave function that is the soul's chakra output, correlating directly with the chi expulsion of each person's tantric whosiwhatits, and culminating with the somethingorother of quantumhypermetaprefixaffixsuffixfractalmathwordssciencejargontechnobabble. So you see, that's why whatever bullshit I'm arguing in favor of is completely true.
 

Desmond

Destroy Erase Improve
Staff member
Admin
What is the point of comparing religions? All religions are a tribal fetish or sorts. You don't really need it to live your life and unscrupulous individuals only use it for profit by taking advantage of those who believe or as justification to carry out atrocities against those of other religions. Terrorism is carried out by such unscrupulous individuals for pleasure or for profit, pick one.
 

sujoyp

Grand Master
What is the point of comparing religions? All religions are a tribal fetish or sorts. You don't really need it to live your life and unscrupulous individuals only use it for profit by taking advantage of those who believe or as justification to carry out atrocities against those of other religions. Terrorism is carried out by such unscrupulous individuals for pleasure or for profit, pick one.

100% Agree :number1:
Now days all religious gurus are just making money in the name of religion...and attached to some political person to gain power and suppress those who does not believe them...

You can try that easily...just throw a comment about a reknown person like asaram bapu or any muslim mulla and I am sure next day some goons from a political party will beat you in the name of religion...
 

lm2k

Journeyman
It is really amazing to see how you reacted to my reply, out of all

verses i tried to explain ,you read only those words that you

wanted to, you inteerperted only what you meant and compiled a

theory that you always fantasize.
It seems that you only see words like fight, kill and highlight

them for drawing the conclusions you want.

"Firstly, you need to understand that Islam is merely 1400 yrs old"
wrong but it is the oldest religion that was finished merely 1400 yrs ago, these include the revisions of various prophets like Zoroaster, Moses ,Jesus Christ and many more.

1- pagan here means- a idolater of mecca/ arabian penensula not

ones who question everything but those who refused to believe no

matter how they were explained and what they saw thus they were

able to see but were still blind, they were able to here but were

deaf and speak everything except truth thus dumb for truth.

"b) Muslim/Islam -> A religion, where Allah cannot be questioned!"

wrong! Most Hadis are all there because some of the apostle

questioned something to messenger and got an answer.

a) Rulers of Mecca -> A geographic connotation and not a religion
Wrong. Rulers of mecca- a powerful tribe that executes/punishes

muslims.

"So lets say, Muslims are trying to Islamize the whole world and I

as an unbeliever protest that and do not believe in Allah, or the

last day or pay acknowledgement of superiority, will you

necessarily chop my limbs?

Obviously, if you fight me for not believing in Allah, then I'll

have to fight you out of self-defense and my freedom of thought.

Will this be seen as waging a war against Allah?"

so lets say muslims are trying to preach islam and you reject then
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear

from error”
[Al-Qur’an 2:256]

but if you arrange riots and go on killing several innocent people

then
“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His

Messenger [i.e., Muhammad], and strive with might and main for

mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the

cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from

the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy

punishment is theirs in the Hereafter. ( Quran 5.33)”

where "mischief" means crimes(stated aove the verse 5.33). In india

i think the punishment for this is lifetime improsonment.

Fight those who believe not in Allåh, nor in the Last Day, nor

forbid that which Allåh and His Messenger have forbidden, nor

follow the Religion of Truth, out of those who have been given the

Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and

they are in a state of s subjection (9.29)

I explained this earlier in my post but for you once more
Regarding religious tax that is ziziya, for a muslim in muslim

state there was compulsory conscription, while for nonmuslims

instead of compulsory conscription they need to pay tax. But for

muslims Zakat (tax) was and is still compulsary inspite of military

service to defend the state against foreign invaders. In some cases

the nonmuslims formed armies and helped the state defence so ziziya

was not taken from them and neither zakat.The amount of the ziziya

was based upon the income and wealth and only applicable to healthy

males capable of working. So whats wrong in it??


verse 8.39 talk about fighting operession being done, just like the

kavravas operessed the pandavas, still pandavas did not agitate

against them but when the pandavas were tormented further then they

fought back. SO fight until you are not punished for worshipping

the GOD and nobody else(which is the birth right of every human).


verses 9.xx were reaveled in the battlefield instructing

understrength,outnumbered and underarmed muslim people to fight

those who did unjustice to you and gave various torments .But

further now they are still commanded to look for peace from the

enemy and those who want peace it is commanded to not only spare

them but also to escort them secure stated in 9.6 .But still you

only see "they are men without knowledge" here knowledge implies

the understanding or meaning of what atrocites the pagans comitted

angainst the believers.

further 5.32 : God legistated that if any human kills other for no

reason it is as if he had killed the whole of the human race else

if he saves a life it is like he saved the whole human race, as you

said understanding the metaphor, try to understand what has been

said here it is to honour the life be it of a believer or not

instead of fantasizing your fear of islamization and then drawing

lines to where you wantt.

comming back to the peace treaty, we need to understand the

background of the events that happened before it. The pagans of

mecca had torchored the believers to their extents which included

contant raiding on their tribes, looting their houses, raping their

women , and many things your party people do during riots. Still

the pagans were given a peace treaty , this still shows the one

sided efforts for peace but the treaty was still broken by the

pagans by continuing their acts. So now just like the pandavas the

muslims wage war that too after providing adequate time for

thinking and making peace again. It is not just mearely the peace

treaty that was broken. Further the action of the muslims is

extremely restrained. Like you see in riots or a terriost attack

where the agressor just runs around killling innocent people , the

muslms are commanded to spare the noncombatants and further secure

those who seek peace.


2:191 refer to my previous post , remove yoyr black cap and read it

properly. just not pick up the word kill/ fight and start dancing,

take the meaning it makes in there.

swadharma means excatly as you stated but you forgot to add

worshipping God and respecting the great persons.

you understand the suffering of the pandavas and vastra haran of one lady named Draupadi ,but you dont see the sufferings of the thousands of follower and their wives, children and just they waged war against injust being done you began to take meanings out of context everywhere ever you want.


All this and i have still not stated any thing from manusmriti about how shudras must be treated if they hurt a person of upper cast.


Lastly mediator please do me a favour, please post what hindu literature tells about hating and spreading the hatred like you are doing here.

@DeSmOnD dAvId ,@sujoyp
but why spread hatred about others.
 

Skyh3ck

Cyborg Agent
Religion is not good for modern civilised world. The real place of religion is behind closed doors of temple. Mosque and churches. Every religion teaches humanity but humanity does not teach or force religion.. That's a fact. And we don't need bullets and bombs to destroy the world. Religion itself doing it. Look what those people did in UK beheading a British soldier in day light. Its time to stop advocating and supporting radicals and beheaders who keep looking for Kafirs and infidels.
 

Desmond

Destroy Erase Improve
Staff member
Admin
I will quote my self from elsewhere in this forum

"Saying that religion causes wars is like saying that guns kill people."

We know that guns don't kill, people do. Therefore, I don't blame religion, but I blame the people/followers.

But then again, a gun in the hands of a madman will never amount to anything good.
 
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