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Help Req For Motherboard

Discussion in 'CPU / Motherboards' started by PraKs, Nov 5, 2004.

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  1. PraKs

    PraKs New Member

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    Hi

    Just want to know about motherboard

    I m planning to purchase a new PC
    Like to know, which motherboard in INTEL Supports 400 Mhz DDR RAM

    I already have a 512 MB DDR RAM ( 400 MHZ ) Hynix

    Now thing is, I want to Only go for Intel ORIGINAL Motherboard
    with Onboard Graphics & Sound..

    Will Intel ORIGINAL 815 GV Supports 400 Mhz Speed of RAM Or max is
    333 Mhz Only ?

    Pls Help me
    Bye..
     
  2. nikhilesh

    nikhilesh New Member

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    lol!!

    815GV is a damn old mobo for P3's!

    forget abt ddr400,it dusnt even support ddr ram!

    get an asus p4p800(intel 865pe)
     
  3. imgame

    imgame New Member

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    go for intel 865gbf .....good value for money and it supports dual channel also so later u can add one more 512 (400 Mhz ) to enjoy full 800Mhz of ur FSB processor ! ..it has graphics intel extreme 2 and soundmax XL ..sound for 5.1 channel ....and it is available for as low as 4.8 k
     
  4. theraven

    theraven Active Member

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    imgame
    dual channel makes the memory run at 2ce the badnwidth
    doesnt have anything to do with the fsb or the processor
    which btw are 2 diff things
    neither does the memory frequency have anything to do with the fsb
     
  5. nikhilesh

    nikhilesh New Member

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    and also raven,
    "theoretically",its twice the bandwidth.

    but practically the performance diff is not tht much.
     
  6. imgame

    imgame New Member

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    i wrote for processor FSB which is important ...why its mentioned below

    perhaps i got my fundae wrong

    SOURCE LINK:-

    http://www.fact-index.com/f/fr/front_side_bus.html


    Front-Side-Bus (FSB) is an Intel term describing a CPU-to-system memory data bus. It has been formerly known as CPU bus speed, '\external CPU speed, memory bus and system bus', too. It is the speed at which the CPU communicates with RAM (memory).

    Many system components - including the PCI and AGP buses - usually run at speeds derived from the frontside bus's speed. In general, a faster frontside bus means higher processing speeds and a faster computer, for a number of resons which are outlined below.

    How fast your processor runs at is determined by applying a clock multiplier to the frontside bus speed. For example, a processor running at 550MHz might be using a 100 MHz FSB; this means there is a clock multiplier setting of 5.5, thus the CPU is set to run at 5.5 times the MHz speed of the front side bus: basically equating to 100 MHz x 5.5 = 550 MHz.

    Most motherboards offer the ability for the user to manually set the clock multiplier and FSB settings by changing jumpers. Although many CPU manufacturers now usually "lock" an unchangable preset multiplier setting into the chip, meaning manually-set multiplier settings are ignored in favour of the preset multiplier. It is possible to unlock some locked CPUs (namely those from AMD) through a complicated process of connecting electrical currents across points on the CPU's surface.

    For some processors, the FSB speed can be increased to boost processing speed (called overclocking). This overclocking can take different forms; such as overclocking the front side bus higher than the motherboard was designed to go, or overclocking the front side bus for the purposes of overclocking a (usually, locked) CPU.

    The PCI and AGP buses, which usually run much slower than the frontside bus, use dividers to reduce the clock speed. Typically the PCI bus runs at 33 MHz, and the AGP bus runs at twice the PCI bus's speed. The speed at which the PCI bus is set at is almost always a division of the front side bus's speed: eg, a 166 MHz front side bus will mean the PCI bus is set to run at 1/5th of the speed of the FSB. Usually a motherboard will have FSB speed increments at which these PCI dividers are designed with: typically 66 MHz, 100 MHz, 133 MHz, 166 MHz and 200 MHz; meaning dividers of one half, one third, one forth and so on, to go with the standard bus speeds. When a person overclocks or just increases the front side bus speed away from one of the normal speed increments, the PCI bus (and AGP bus + the hard drive controller) will therefore be overclocked too: eg if Joe increases the front side bus from 100 MHz to 105 MHz, the PCI bus will then be at 35 MHz and the AGP at 70 MHz), because it is still retaining the ratio meant for the 100 MHz bus. Changing the FSB all the way to 133 MHz will swap over to a 1/4th ratio for the PCI bus, and therefore it will be similarly overclocked if the FSB is moved to 140 MHz.

    It is technically possible for the PCI and AGP buses to run at speeds not derived from the front side bus's clock. However, in practice, few motherboards have ever supported asynchronous PCI. Examples do include some socket 7 motherboards which supported an 83 MHZ FSB for clock-doubled 166 MHz Cyrix 6x86s, but wished to be able to run the PCI at a safe speed; 41 MHz was, and still is, beyond the ability of many PCI components to cope with.

    When choosing a FSB speed for the CPU you chose, be aware that you'll need to purchase memory capable of this faster speed. Pushing the front-side bus to 110 MHz means you are also pushing your memory, be it PC100 (or higher, i.e. PC133), to 110 MHz. Some PCI devices (such as sound cards) won't handle the PCI bus going too far above the default speed. Sometimes hard-drive controllers will behave incorrectly in such environments too.

    In a typical image processing application where the data set (acquired images) is large, FSB speed becomes a major performance issue. A slow FSB will cause the CPU to spend significant amounts of time waiting for data to arrive from system memory.

    One issue of confusion is the labeling of front side bus speeds. Typically a FSB today is dual or quad channel, meaning a FSB speed advertised as being "333 MHz" may actually be 166 MHz dual channel, effectively meaning 333 MHz of speed. Nowadays, PC (X86) CPUs work with front side bus speeds ranging from 133 MHz dual channel (266 MHz effective) to 200 MHz quad channel (800 MHz effective).

    The back side bus goes to the L2 RAM cache and has always been faster than the front side bus which goes to main RAM and the rest of the system.



    perhaps above article is more difficult to understand ...but following is a very good white paper on intel Dual Channel Memory Architecture
    and read the section 4.0 properly as it tells how FSB and dual channel architecture are interdependent


    SOURCE LINK :-

    http://www.kingston.com/newtech/MKF_520DDRWhitepaper.pdf




    i think this will answer all the doubts about FSB and dual channel !
     
  7. theraven

    theraven Active Member

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    nowhere does it say u need dual channel to "enjoy" full 800 mhz fsb
    i agree u need faster ram to take advantage of it
    but dual channel has nuthin to do with it
    like i mentioned and nikhilesh corrected ....
    dual channel theoretically makes ur ram work at 2ce the bandwidth
    NO EFFECT ON FREQUENCY !! ( effectively maybe )
     
  8. indrajit

    indrajit New Member

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    I'm using 865GBF mobo and it really is value for money! It supports SATA drives too!
     
  9. imgame

    imgame New Member

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    u missed the last part of my thread .....i refered to a whitepaper read it CAREFULLY.......u didnot read it perhaps .....read it its a whitepaper on intel dual memory architecture ....and u will have all ur doubts clear !

    Link for white paper :-

    http://www.kingston.com/newtech/MKF_520DDRwhitepaper.pdf


    i am copy-pasting what it says in section 4 of this white paper


    A processor’s link to the memory controller is called the processor’s front-side bus (FSB).

    The FSB is the “high-speed highway� that interfaces to the processor.The front-side bus determines how fast the processor can obtain data from the memory controller. The speeds of the newest processors are now so fast that there are times when the processor remains idle, waiting for more data from memory. To increase efficiency, the memory controller needs to send data as fast as the processor can receive it (and store it back into memory modules as fast as the processor can “pump� the data out). Peakefficiency is only reached when the data throughput from the processor’s front-side bus matches the memory modules’ throughput.
    Intel’s newest Pentium4 processors have front-side bus architectures operating at data speeds of 533MHz and 800MHz. This translates to a peak data bandwidth of 4.2GB/s (533MHz x 8 Bytes) and 6.4GB/s (800MHz x 8 Bytes) respectively.

    The following chart illustrates the Peak Bandwidth of the processor and memory:
    P4 Front-Side Bus (FSB) Speed and Peak Bandwidth

    "THERE IS A TABLE HERE IN WHITE PAPER WHICH I WAS NOT ABLE TO COPY " -REFER TO IT FOR DETAILS

    *Best match based upon system memory having a peak bandwidth equal to or greater than the processor’s
    As this table shows, current P4 processors with 533MHz and 800MHz front-side bus speeds (also represented as “P4/533� and “P4/800�) require dual-channel memory architecture for best performance and performance headroom – the ability to provide more performance for future applications.For example, a single channel of PC3200 memory provides one-half the required bandwidth capacity for the P4/800 processor. For demanding applications, in the single channel mode, the processor will be “starved� for data.
    As front-side bus bandwidth of future processors increases, memory performance will need to exceed what is currently offered by dual-channel PC3200 platforms.


    now it is quite clear that actually FSB and RAM frequecny are closely related ......and if u read how exactly RAM communicates with processor u will come to know why FSB is so important .......



    A GUIDE TO UNDERSTAND HOW FSB IS INTERRELATED TO RAM FREQUENCY (just an elaboration of white paper) :


    Here is what happens when a RAM comunicates with the CPU (i will try to explain it in layman terms as far as possible).

    When u give particular instruction to open a program say for example MS WORD . The processor analyzes the instruction and it sends a request to HARDDISK to load the particular program in RAM. Once it is loaded in RAM it has to go to CPU for processing now this is achived with the help of a MEMORY CONTROLLER . This MEMORY CONTROLLER actually forms a bridge between RAM and CPU.something like this :-


    CPU<--1-->Memory Controller <--2--> RAM


    The link between CPU and MEMORY CONTROLLER is called FSB.The front-side bus determines how fast the processor can obtain data from the memory controller.That is in the above diagram the link marked no. 1 is nothing but FSB.Now the faster the FSB the faster the data gets exchanged between CPU and Memory Controller (offcourse CPU's level1,level2,leve3 and so on cache comes into picture for faster performance at this level but we are strictly talking about RAM here!).The above working is strictly for DDRSDRAM and SDRAM ...as RAMBUS (RDRAM) technology works in a diffrent way.Also while talking about the performance we need to talk in terms of DATA BANDWIDTH. Because it gives the best idea about the amount of data can be in send in a unit time.The more more data we can send in a unit time the better it is in this case.Here in our case the it is easy to represent the DATA BANDWIDTH in Gigabytebytes/second.

    As it is clearly mentioned in the white paper how to find the data bandwidth (in white paper it is called peak bandwidth.....the reason for calling it "peak" bandwidth is also mentioned in white paper !). For the sake of completion i m repeating the calculation here :-

    peak bandwidth(PB) = Memory Speed (MS) x No. of Bytes Transferred per channel x no. of channels.

    now the memory controller can move 64 bit (=8 byte as 1 byte = 8 bits ) of data at a unit time in a single channel mode. so for dual channel it is 64x2 =128 bit = 16 bytes.

    so we can calculate peak bandwidth (PBW) for DDR3200 i.e, memory @ 400MHz in dual channel

    (PBW) = {400 MHz } x 8 byte x 2
    = {400x [1 e +6 (1/s)]} x 16
    = 6.4 GB/s
    From above calculation its quite clear that DDR3200 in dual channel mode is capable of delivering 6.4 Gb of data per second. but what if CPU can not recive or send it at the same speed. For that we will have bottleneck.So here FSB comes into picture since it is the link between memory controller and CPU it should deliver all the data of 6.4 Gb in a sec to the CPU and if FSB is not capable of doing it we will not be able to enjoy the performance of dual channel DDR3200 RAM.

    now how will we know what is the bandwidth of FSB ????

    we have options of FSB available we will calculate the bandwidth (BW) of all these FSB's

    1)for FSB=400MHz ,
    PBW = 400MHz x 8 Bytes = 3.2 GB/s

    2)for FSB = 533 MHz ,
    PBW = 533 MHz x 8 Bytes = 4.264 GB/s

    2)for FSB = 800 MHz
    PBW = 800 x 8 = 6.4 GB/s

    {since BW= FSB x No of byte transferred }

    Hence it is clear from above calculations that we need 800 Mhz FSB for 6.4 GB/s of BW.Since FSB is the link between memory controller and CPU .both CPU and memorycontroller chip should support 800 MHz FSB.So if u use a 533 FSB processor with dual channel DDR3200 u r not utilising the full potential of RAM and chipset architecture.

    To understand it more simple way consider the analogy of pipes.Let us say that CPU is connected to Memory controller chip with a Pipe and so is memory controller to RAM. Now the higher data flow(PBW) pipe has bigger radius than a lower data flow pipe (PWB).call the 1st pipe that is pipe connecting CPU and memory controller chip as A and second the pipe connecting memory controller chip to RAM as B. Also consider data as fluid.IF CPU is 533 MHz the PBW is smaller so is pipe A. but if the RAM is 3200 in Dual channel mode the PBW is higher and so is pipe B . so it like two pipes of different radius are connected end to end at Memory controller chip. CLeary u can see there is a bottle neck due to Pipe A .

    So it is clear that FSB actually a critical performance parameter and is directly related to RAM frequecy.And in intel architecutre the higher the FSB the better the performance will be with corresponding RAM frequency. The highest FSB that intel processor have now is 1066 MHz.but memory frequecny has to be increased to provide the required data to the CPU,so that the CPU is not to remain idle.hence they are to be used with DDR2 533 MHz.
     
  10. rakesh_1024

    rakesh_1024 New Member

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    Nope, U need Dual channel RAM to take advantage of it :)
    Practically,FSB is the speed with which processor and Motherboard communicate with each other.
    If the Processor has that capabilty and your RAM doesn't have the stuff, whats the use.
    Higher FSB would increase the performance but itz only negligible.
    Higher FSB + Compatible RAM=>great increase in the performance :D
     
  11. imgame

    imgame New Member

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    i guess thats what i wrote in my post above ...i took so much pain to write it ......and the white paper tells it better than anything !
     
  12. rakesh_1024

    rakesh_1024 New Member

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    :oops:
    I have a tendency to skip long posts
    :lol:
    Not goin to read it even now :twisted:
     
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