FSF debuts fully-free Ubuntu/Debian variant
- Status
GNUrag
FooBar Guy
exxxacccttllyy.Yamaraj said:
A functional operating system. An operating system polluted by binary blob drivers may be functional today, but not tomorrow..
As they say, ``a little bit non-free" is akin to saying you're "a little bit pregnant." Close doesn't count, and even if people don't notice the difference today, they'll definitely notice it nine months from now.''
Yamaraj
The Lord of Death
If you can come up with rational arguments against a functional, but closed source,GNUrag said:
operating system, I'll probably take the discussion a little more seriously.
While I do think positively of the OSS/FSF, citing it as the only normal or sane system
is akin to a bunch of nudists hooting at those with clothes on. No matter how strong or
believable an ideology is, if it falls shorts of expectations, it's about as productive as a
dead scientist.
There is a reason why Linux has yet to succeed as the deskop platform of choice. And
I doubt if it ever will. The OSS fundamentalism and communal hatred for the 'binary' is
making Linux suffer. I would like to see an average user react to those who shove the
GNU Menifesto up his rear upon asked for multimedia support, 'free' wireless drivers, 3D
drivers for gaming and productivity and enhanced power management for laptops.
Heil Fuhrer RMS!
GNUrag
FooBar Guy
functional but closed source is not a topic of discussion.Yamaraj said:
remember we're talking about the community right?
Yeah, quite like when a clothed person enters a nudist camp.Yamaraj said:
whatever happened to that school of thought.. ``Nip it in the Bud''Yamaraj said:
today allow wifi blobs, tomorrow tolerate those display blobs, then scsi, then tcp/ip, then whole userland....
Yamaraj said:
it wont as easily.. there are several factors which shape its future of adoption.. and most powerful factor being technology itself.Yamaraj said:
kumarmohit
Technomancer
Another Distro! <Yawn> Wats the news in it... Free or Nonfree, my HDD will still be /dev/hda1.
Yamaraj
The Lord of Death
My ThinkPad dual-boots into WinXP and SUSE 10.1, currently. SUSE is one ofGNUrag said:
the few distributions that contains many "non-free" bits to cater to a wide range
of users. Needless to say I wouldn't use it if it didn't come with drivers required
for proper functioning of the machine. Still, no Linux distribution can properly
manage the intricate power management of laptops, upto the same level as
that of Windows.
Good for you if you can live with the "free restrictions" of the GNUdists.
When time comes, I'll choose functionality and usability over ideology anyday.
Disclaimer: Author of the above post is an experienced Linux user since 1999.
He is an avid Solaris fan (not fanboi!) and uses Solaris Express as his desktop
system.
eddie
El mooooo
This evangelism and ideology that you hate so much has brought Linux and the OSS movement as far as it has reached today. Companies that used to swear by closed source, like Microsoft, Adobe, Sun and Apple, are making adjustments to THEIR OWN ideologies so that they can save themselves from getting exterminated.Yamaraj said:
I understand your frustration about various things but you have to understand that FOSS movement has only the ideology and fanaticism of its followers that keeps it going. If it looses this ideology...it looses the impetus to move ahead. This is the only driving force they have, the only life source. You the USER can use closed source stuff, if you want, but the whole movement will move ahead only if the ideology doesn't change.
Yamaraj
The Lord of Death
No hatred at all! I only dislike the fundamentalism within the community. To some,eddie said:
using nVIDIA drivers or binary blob wireless firmware is blasphemous. People with
this attitude annoy me, and they're also sawing off the roots unknowingly.
The question is, would a normal user put any Linux distribution on his/her system,
if such restrictions were applied to already suffering Linux community? It's this
extremism that ticks me off everytime. Servers can do fine without the 3D drivers,
binary wireless firmware or the multimedia playback/encoding capability. Can
desktop/laptop users afford the same, even at no price? I think not!
My laptop battery lasts only half in Linux, compared to what it yields in Windows.
I cannot specify charge-levels in Linux yet. There is no solid support for suspend/
resume either. But, in stead of fixing these issues, the fanatics are dead set on
boycotting the much-needed closed source bits available to us, that make
our lives a little easier.
Besides, closed-source software is not evil. Except for the IT industry, most of
the daily-use products are not open. Why aren't there any movements against
the closed and patented products like washing machines, television, refridgerators,
or the infamous super-secret Coca Cola recipe? I don't see people boycotting
these products, citing them as "tainting" their lives. Do you?
That said, UNIX/Linux architecture is definitely superior to that of Windows. An
ideal solution would be merging the superiority with usability. I wish to see Linux
distribution vendors and the community putting a little effort in making it more
usable and easier for people. OTOH, I would also like to see Microsoft switching
to a UNIX-like architecture, much like what Apple did. That step would being us
the best of both Worlds.
Last edited:
Well in the short run it is good to have closed source softwares but it will surely hurt in the long run.Yamaraj said:
I totally agree that as it is today, it's difficult to have a functional OS today without proprietory softwares and it's putting off for a lot of users. But, if we do include proprietory softwares we are putting those things that brought linux to where it is today, in the back seat.
Saying that I do myself use some proprietory softwares cos it's necessary to have a functional OS for a home user. But I disagree that proprietory softwares should be bundled with the OS. But, those binaries are mostly available in the package managers of most of the softwares and are easy to obtain.
Problem mostly comes in case of graphics card drivers. It scares off a lot of new users to have an OS without GUI.
eddie
El mooooo
Any community has every type of user with their own opinions. You should respect their opinions just like they respect yours. You want to use binary only drivers...go ahead and do that. No one is stopping you. Those users just don't want to do it on their system and it should not annoy you.Yamaraj said:
The question is that whether this "normal user" would have even heard about Linux if this fundamentalism didn't exist? If GNU/Linux would not have followed this stern path then they would not have been any where. They would have been long dead just like many other attempts to compete with proprietary applications.
I understand your frustration but this is so not true!!! Suspend and resume are probably the busiest patches in kernel. They are being actively developed and tried to be made at-par (or even better) then their closed source counterparts. Just b'cos something doesn't work right now...doesn't mean they are not "fixing" it.
Please give some related analogies. Ripping apart your washing machines, televisions or refrigerators is not illegal. Try reverse engineering closed source applications and you are in danger of getting sued. You can take Coca Cola to nearest laboratory and see what they are feeding you. You can move your washing machine to your new home and use it without informing the manufacturer before switching it on. Can you do the same with the software you are running? Can you know what a software vendor is packing in its application? This analogy is not at all valid, sorry.
Just because they don't want to pack closed source applications with their own applications doesn't mean that they are not putting effort to make things easier for users. If that was the case we would not be having this discussion at all. In fact we would have been happy in our Windows land. Look at how more and more users are coming up to accept Linux. All this is not because of some magic but because of this community that is continuously working to make things better for everyone.
Yamaraj
The Lord of Death
"Should" is not so free after all! I'm exercising my rights in disagreeing with the extremist elements within the community. Before you start taking sides, I would like to know which Linux distribution do *you* use, and on what system. Let's see if you actually follow what you seem to be defending so passionately.eddie said:
It doesn't matter. Linux isn't special as many like to think. UNIX and UNIX-like systems have existed since long before any concept of GNU/FSF was even conceived. And I'm sure an average Joe desktop user isn't going to use "GNUisance" because of the paranoia surrounding it. The most popular distributions are those with non-free repositories readily available to users. Sorry to disappoint you, but Linus and other kernel developers don't seem to agree with the severe restrictions put forward by RMS. I don't see how this fundamentalism is going to benefit the Linux community in long run.eddie said:
I'm not frustrated, for I have choices. They've had problems getting ACPI and SATA working correctly. Kernel 2.6.19 is supposed to bring more enhancements, se let's hope for better. BTW, why did you mark a few words in typeface Bold?eddie said:
The analogy is correct and to the point. You missed it! Reverse engineering in private is possible in case of both commercial software and household appliances. You'll face problems and lawsuits, of course, if you try capitalizing on the reversed knowledge. In fact, OpenBSD contains *many* reverse-engineered drivers including some wireless ones too. Even the Linux kernel contains reverse-engineered drivers. Your take on my analogy was not mature or responsible enough at all. Please come up with better arguments.eddie said:
We are having this discussion because of an exact opposite of what you're trying to convince me with. This discussion is taking place because of a distribution that aims to set ideology higher than usability, by forcing users not to use any binary blobs or drivers at all. Pardon me, but the growing Linux community has more to do with the XGL hype and Ubuntu, not because of a newfound *belief* in RMS or his ideology.eddie said:
Please post a screenshot or two of the ideology that your system relies on. Enlighten me too.
__________
Do you really think I don't know how to click on a button or suspend/resume at all? That was funny.mediator said:
Last edited:
eddie
El mooooo
First of all please clear your concept about me. I am not "taking sides". I am just saying that people have their own opinion. No one is forcing you to use gNewSense. You can use any distro you like but just saying that anything you do not like is nuisance is quite narrow minded imho. It just doesn't leave any difference between you and the worst of FSF fanboi's, like RMS (you don't know how much I hate the guy). I don't know what you will come to know by knowing about my system but I use Gentoo Linux 2006.1 on a P4 2.66GHz, 512MB RAM, Intel 915GLVG, 160GB X 3 HDD.Yamaraj said:
They existed but did they succeed? The point is not for how long you have existed but what you have achieved. The FSF movement has put all the projects in a thread and brought them forward. As far as non-free repositories are concerned. Can you point me to a Linux distro that doesn't have such repository available? I couldn't find one but may be you could enlighten me? As far as RMS is concerned...I don't like the guy and do not wish to even discuss his philosophy. FSF movement doesn't end at his philosophy. The thing is simple...it is your choice to do what you want. They have their choice to hate closed-source stuff...you have your choice to love them. As far as I can see, only their choice has brought Linux to what it is today. The day I see Freespire taking over Ubuntu, I will accept that your choice is better then their.
To mark the point I was referring to. I usually do that in my posts to not cause any confusion regarding which point I am talking about.
I can open my washing machine and tear open its thermostat, motors, circuit board and everything. I can create my own circuit boards based on the knowledge I get from it and then sell my products. On the other hand cracking open your closed source application is simply illegal. Have you ever read the EULA of any closed source application for that matter? Go and read it for Windows XP and you will know what I am saying. They explicitly talk about reverse engineering and decompilation...no words minced. Did you agree to any such EULA before using your washing machine? If you did then you are right about the analogy. I am sorry.
Also, just because OpenBSD has reverse engineered drivers does not mean that it is legal. The day when the developers of the original drivers plan to sue OpenBSD they will not have any other option but to shut the shop. Till then they can live happily and enjoy the sun shine. Also, I must have missed the Linux Kernel's reverse engineered drivers. Which ones are included in official kernel? Please tell me...I sincerely do not know. If they have done something like this then they have opened a major loop hole for getting their a$$ whooped.
...and both the XGL and Ubuntu are successful because of closed source applications?
I am just saying that Linux is what it is today because of these people who hold the ideology so high. There is no reason to hate them or hate their thoughts...if you don't like it...take your own path and make something better. That is the beauty of OSS...no one binds you to anything. Go ahead...create your own distro and make things easier for everyone. I for one would be more than happy to use it
Screenshot of what?
Last edited:
- Status