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China vs India

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p_dude

Broken In
^ its not all about the money. think about resources, niether do we recycle, nor do we conserve. think about all the farmland that is being bought over for residential or commerical pourposes. the population is increasing, food and other resources are decreasing. worst hit by india's industrialization are farmers. they are given a pittance for their land by industrialists who make hundreds of crores.

why do they need so much land? do they use all of? yes, but mostly for lawns and fountains.

the newspapers tell you why a growing population is good, but they dont tell why it can be bad.

in western countries, the quality of life is better, for everybody. even a construction worker or a taxi driver can live a comfortable life, thats why many indians become taxi drivers there. the same cannot be said of india. that is where population can make a difference.

when you point out that countries like japan have had stagnant growth rate, you dont take in account, the fact that japan grew long before we did. so now, they already have all the factories and stuff that we are getting just now. most of their population is empolyed, unlike here. again, you have to consider the quality of life.

you say nobody wants to go and work in villages, well that coz our govt cannot provide necessary facilities in rural areas. no electricity, no roads etc... that is where we get our food from, but yet, they are the most neglected.

you say india has had a good growth rate, if india was all that good, why do we still see thousands of our youth going away to USA, UK etc..? because the quality of life is better. why is that? because of demand for engineers. why is that? because of low population and good living conditions. young people there do not want to learn something difficult like math coz they dont have to. they can become sales executives and still live a comfortable life.

but we dont have a choice. we do what people say is "paying". but they, they do what they want to do. thats precisely the reason why, they have a few engineers who are way smarter than most our engineers.

they do something coz they want to do it. we do it coz we need to do it.
i may not agree totally on some of your previous posts nix
but what you have said now is very true
 
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arvindravindranath

Right off the assembly line
^ its not all about the money. think about resources, niether do we recycle, nor do we conserve. think about all the farmland that is being bought over for residential or commerical pourposes. the population is increasing, food and other resources are decreasing. worst hit by india's industrialization are farmers. they are given a pittance for their land by industrialists who make hundreds of crores.

why do they need so much land? do they use all of? yes, but mostly for lawns and fountains.

the newspapers tell you why a growing population is good, but they dont tell why it can be bad.

in western countries, the quality of life is better, for everybody. even a construction worker or a taxi driver can live a comfortable life, thats why many indians become taxi drivers there. the same cannot be said of india. that is where population can make a difference.

when you point out that countries like japan have had stagnant growth rate, you dont take in account, the fact that japan grew long before we did. so now, they already have all the factories and stuff that we are getting just now. most of their population is empolyed, unlike here. again, you have to consider the quality of life.

you say nobody wants to go and work in villages, well that coz our govt cannot provide necessary facilities in rural areas. no electricity, no roads etc... that is where we get our food from, but yet, they are the most neglected.

you say india has had a good growth rate, if india was all that good, why do we still see thousands of our youth going away to USA, UK etc..? because the quality of life is better. why is that? because of demand for engineers. why is that? because of low population and good living conditions. young people there do not want to learn something difficult like math coz they dont have to. they can become sales executives and still live a comfortable life.

but we dont have a choice. we do what people say is "paying". but they, they do what they want to do. thats precisely the reason why, they have a few engineers who are way smarter than most our engineers.

they do something coz they want to do it. we do it coz we need to do it.



nix.....you seem to be pretty concerned about farmland and food shortages i can see......now for a few facts....55% of india's land is arable and we have the second largest cultivable area after the US but we still suffer from food shortages including the infamous sugar shortage now but this is not because of overpopulation but instead it is because of poor farm productivity

japan has a population density of 330/sq ft india has a population density of 303/sq ft with most of the japanese land going to industry and cities and the rest to mountains they are still self sufficient in rice and even have a small surplus every year which is exported to africa at a discount they are also self sufficient in onions cabbages and a few other vegetables despite the very negligible land available for agriculture

why?

this is because unlike our country where there is rampant fertilizer shortage and skewed fertilizer policy the japanese intensively cultivate their land making maximum use of it they use both macro and micro nutrient fertilizers unlike the only macro nutrient fertilizers give by our government this results in productivity of over 1200 tonnes/hectare while our productivity is around 150-200 tonnes per hectare and 300-350 in punjab the main culprit is unavailability of fertilizers and irrigation only25% of our land is irrigated and even then we are almost self sufficient in food grains 40% of our food production goes to waste because of inadequate storage facilities .with proper irrigation and fertilizer application on even 50% of the cultivated land we'll have plenty for export.

the western countries got rich in the first place only because of one reason namely "COLONIALISM"
they had made many scientific advances and thus the industrial revolution began in europe this according to me was the turning point in the world's history
europeans with their new factory built guns and cannons invaded asia africa and the americas and looted us of our wealth....india was among the richest countries in the world those days the europeans looted our wealth,took it home ,and made themselves rich and when an economy starts with a high base it doesn't come down so easily

however japan and china's example here is interesting japan after the second world war benefited from a clause in its constitution which forbade it to declare war on other countries and under american occupation they weren't able to invest much in their military so all money went to investment in industry japanese engineers in the US who were discriminated against returned home and there was a determined effort to reclaim japan's honour which had been lost during the war the founders of nintendo,sony and toyota all studied in the us at some point of their lives ps:(satoru iwata who steered nintendo from toys to video games was the one who studies in the US he "founded" the nintendo we know today)


china on the other hand began its industrial liberalization only in 1972 after which under deng xiaoping the government made use of china's biggest asset its vast labour force and factories started opening along with construction of roads,bridges,ports etc
india started this process only 19 years on.....but the same is happening here,that too without a determined effort by the government but one by entrepreneurs just imagine what would happen if both worked in tandem!

i once again reiterate my point about skilled labour which is in shortage in this country agreed that people don't want to work in the rural areas but even in the cities you have to go the hospital only when the doctor is available
our per capita doctor availabilty is even lower than pakistan!!!

i would love write another passage on the engineers part but i'm really sleepy now so maybe tomorrow......
 
I would consider the coming of Europeans into India as the beginning of India's decline .Colonial british historians have hugely distorted indian history .

India and China consistently ranked among the top 4 economies in the ancient world (prior to 1700s)

In fact india alone accounted for 1/3 of the world's population at that time and India's trade accounted for almost 33.3 % of global trade Europe's was 24 % and i am talking about whole a country vs a whole continent !

When the British left India during the 1950's India's trade was a mere 3.5% down almost by 30% !
60 years hence i believe India and China are on their way to the place where they belong ... and thats the top !

and do you think India was a militarily weak country ?
that deserves a completely separate post
 
Denial isn't the best medicine. India IS a poor country, whether its pleasant to admit it or not. Almost all of our better paying jobs come from Americans, which is hardly what I'd call 'self sufficient'. There aren't enough jobs for people in India, even though Indians are willing to slog hard for jobs that pay dirt.

Where in the world would you find a qualified engineer willing to work 8-10 hours a day for a paycheck of less than 400 dollars a month? Where in the world would you find millions of young professionals, spending sleepless nights catering politely to rude and insulting American customers, for less than 300 dollars a month?


China is a less of a danger to us, because we already see it as an enemy and are cautious of it. US is more dangerous because it has sweet talked us into subservience to its political interests, even though it is not going to do us any long term good.

When it comes to Pakistan, China is simply being a businessman. They don't hand out doles, they just sell products for which Pakistan pays. If Pakistan wasn't our enemy, we would have done it too, as long as they paid us. It would have been regardless of who Pakistan is fighting at the time. It is the US which is the problem here, what with paying billions of dollars every year and generous military 'upgrades' to Pakistan.

At present, the US is using India to counterbalance China and we Indians are falling for it - hook, line and sinker. In retrospect, I think we deserve it since we refuse to learn anything worth learning from history.

BIG BIG Applause
Just take the case of Laxmi Mittal . when he tried to acquire Arcelor a European company ,European govt intervened to block the deal ! . Why ? because Mittal was an Indian ! (read from an inferior Eastern culture) .
Arcelor CEO Guy Dolle went about making racist remarks especially about his Indianess .
and recently Vijay mallya's bid to buy a French champagne producing company from an American businessman was blocked .why ? He was Indian . Explicitly racist .

Lets assume China is defeated by india . do you think India would then go on to become a developed country unhindered ? Dream on ...

The biggest threat is not China but Big Brother . which sees India and China as a threat to itself and its allys (Europe ofcourse).

it opportunistically takes side
using India to balance China and Pakistan to balance India .

There are so many reports being published about Pak using US money to finance its anti-Indian military and yet they make no move to stop or rectify the problem . why ? think
 

nix

Senior Member
regarding colonialism, I agree that it was not good; but, we have only ourself to blame. China never got fully colonized. Its because they were united. We could neither stop the arabs nor the british. have you heard of 'survival of fittest?.'

@arvindravindranath,

If we cant use the current amount of land efficiently for farming, how do you think we can do so when land available for farming has shrunk?

Japan has not in trouble as its population is stable, unlike india.

Even after the brits took all that they could, we could still have still made it. But we were too complacent.

Also, japan's rise could not have been possible without US help. The US government helped rebuild japan. The japanese got the know how that they needed to make it big. The japanese people also genuinely worked hard to improve japan, not to reclaim "japan's honor". There was no honor in what the japanese did prior to defeat. The then japanese rulers are responsible for the deaths of millions of chinese. The youth of japan recognize this and are grateful to the US. Thats why japan turned from a third world country to a first world one.

This guy had a huge role in rebuilding japan:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Sadly, the US is trying to do the same in afghanistan. But the afghan people do not realise this, and keep hating america.

Japan and south korea also depend on the US military for protection, from countries like NKorea.

Those bases in japan are there because both parties want them. If the japs told them to go, they would.
 
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dips_view

Broken In
posted by nix
Those bases in japan are there because both parties want them. If the japs told them to go, they would.

Yes its so easy to u!!!!!! :!::!: just like british .. we told them and they obey us. i think imperialism/fascism is nothing to u..

how can u believe that some imperialist force free their colonies?? u give advice to believe Afghans the third grade American propaganda .. even Americans don't believe it.. :lol:
 

krinish

Journeyman
India's 'hegemony' is a threat, says China daily

New Delhi: India's 'hegemony' poses a threat to its neighbours, says a premier Chinese daily, citing India's "recent provocation on border issues with China" as proof.

In an opinion piece, the People's Daily says, "In recent years, Indians have become more narrow minded and intolerable of outside criticism as nationalism sentiment rises, with some of them even turning to hegemony.

"It can be proved by India's recent provocation on border issues with China.''

The newspaper, which is the mouthpiece of the ruling Communist Party, says that India's hegemony "is a hundred per cent result of British colonialism. Dating back to the era of British India, the country covered a vast territory including present-day India, Pakistan, Myanmar, Bangladesh as well as Nepal.''

A previous victim of colonialism and hegemony, it said, India started dreaming about developing its own hegemony after the British left.

"Obsessed with such mentality, India turned a blind eye to the concessions China had repeatedly made over the disputed border issues, and refused to drop the pretentious airs when dealing with neighbours like Pakistan.''

To bolster its argument, the newspaper says that even Jawaharlal Nehru had once said that "India could not play an inferior role in the world, and it should either be a superpower or disappear.'

Calling the dream of being a superpower held by Indians "impetuous", the daily says, "The dream of superpower is mingled with the thought of hegemony, which places the South Asian giant in an awkward situation and results in repeated failure.

Since India has constantly been under foreign rule, the newspaper said, "the essence for the rise of India lies in how to be an independent country, to learn to solve the complicated ethnic and religious issues, to protect the country from terrorist attacks, to boost economic development as well as to put more efforts on poverty alleviation.''

But India's hegemonic designs face geopolitical limitation. "It has the Himalaya mountain to its north, a natural barrier for northward expansion; it has Pakistan to the west, a neighbour it is always at odds over the disputed border issues,'' the article says.

Blaming India for pursuing a foreign policy of "befriend the far and attack the near", it said, "It engaged in the war separately with China and Pakistan and the resentment still simmers. If India really wants to be a superpower, such a policy is shortsighted and immature.''

If India wants to be a superpower, the daily said, it needs to have "its eyes on relations with neighbours and abandon the recklessness and arrogance as the world is undergoing earthshaking changes.

"For India, the ease of tension with China and Pakistan is the only way to become a superpower.''

It said China is "proactively engaging in negotiations with India for the early settlement of border dispute and India should give a positive response".
 

arvindravindranath

Right off the assembly line
nix,.........
about china being united and india a fractured state....that's utter nonsense. india was far better off than china after the end of the proper mughal empire(ie.aurangzeb's death)

after aurangzeb's death several states like mysore,hyderabad,bengal.kashmir,punjab etc declared independence there was relative peace and prosperity in that time,compare this to the opium wars in china,the whole country was a giant drug addict state with people selling their land holdings,family possessions just to get their daily dose!.....and the several rebellions which cost a lot in terms of human life and loss of wealth eg.
Punti-Hakka Clan Wars, Nien Rebellion, Panthay Rebellion and the Boxer Rebellion etc.....also let us not forget that the europeans were a bit intimidated by the ever assertive(again!) japanese up north,they had taken the whole of manchuria the entire coastline was taken by the french,the germans,the british(hong kong), the portugese(macao) to say a few, china would have definitely fallen over time had the world wars not come........also keep in mind that the process of colonising china started in 1840 and in india nearly a hundred years earlier with the battle of plassey(1757) there was less competition too with no presence of the germans or the japanese around .....

the japanese did not grow like they did because of american investment! name one american company that has made it big in japan!, while honda and toyota have almost bankrupted the american auto industry!

japan mainly made it big because of the severe constitutional restrictions that were put on its military that exist even today, it is technically illegal for them to start a war! all taxpayer money that was supposed to go the military went to investment leading to large government owned industrial behemoths like nippon steel,NTT docomo etc.....

and do you think the americans were doing a favour for the japanese and south koreans by sending its military???!..even the americans had vested interest....the americans just wanted an excuse to send their military to the region to counterbalance that of the Soviet Union....

regarding japan's honor...i can understand that the japanese rulers did wrong and the people recognise that,what i meant that japan experienced reverse brain drain immediately after the war as the skilled japanese workers that had emigrated abroad were discriminated against.......they were called 'nips'(referring to the traditional name of japan "nippon"....india:bharat,japan:nippon) so these workers returned to their homeland to rebuild their country,this is not happening in india,indians still go aboad in large numbers and this is affecting our development....deming's work was a part of a larger motive by the american establishment of gaining an important ally in that region.......


about the farmland.....yes we need more industry and more employment in the rural areas....for industry farmland has to be acquired why?....because when factories are built more people get jobs for the unit area and as the excess labour goes from agriculture farm production will be more efficient,yields will improve...this will make up for any loss in harvest due to land being diverted and maybe even add to it....the problem is of excess employment....and not deficient farmland


regarding the whole problem of population plz visit my blog

http://iwanttobeprimeminister.blogspot.com/

ps:i started it only yesterday but its not showing up in google search could any one help?
 
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arvindravindranath

Right off the assembly line
and what can i say about china"s media?....its all state owned bull**** there's nothing more influential than the media and when its controlled by the government,it can be a great aid to state machinery,there are people protesting against china's stringent control of the media and general censorship,just look back a few months and you might remember the great "Green Dam Youth Escort" controversy.....the chinese government made it compulsory for computer manufacturers to install this software which supposedly will "Guide the moral conscience of China's youth" it was nothing more than a mixture of code stolen from a variety of similar american and european internet child protection software....it was supposed to be intelligent as it would not just block URLS but intelligently scan them and block them eliminating the need for frequent updating but the most absurd discovery was made! if one put a black woman's nude photograph it wasn't censored! but a white woman's would be immediately blocked!....talk abt racial stereotypes!....numerous other bugs were discovered and there were several protests before the plan was chucked.....

just another example of this would be italy and silvio berlusconi.
berlu controls the three largest private news channels and the state owned tv network what more is required?!...there is simply no opposition as they are too busy fighting within themselves this man actually had women on the tv saying that he's a real man and a real leader for italy?...why?...only a real man can have a different 18 year old girl every night even though he himself is 73!!!!...he was once seen in an investor conference wooing investors to italy and when asked why should they go to italy??..

"cause in Italy,you get beautiful women to be your secretaries"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

bradstyris

Right off the assembly line
The main fight between china and India is water. China want water source held in Arunachal pradesh. which is state of india. China want water for his growth.
 
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